Audio channel "Stadtstimmen"

[Intro music] Tobias: Hello dear listeners of Archivwürdig! After a long break, I'm back today with some good news about the upcoming driseason of our podcast. First things first: The new season starts next week on Thursday, November 28th. And, exceptionally, new episodes will be released on a weekly basis. What can you expect in the dritten season of Archivwürdig? As you, dear listeners, may have gathered from the media, there was an international competition for a contemporary memorial site in Reichenau. We have taken the upcoming redesign as an opportunity to talk about the former Reichenau labor education camp. On the other hand, we also want to address the related topic of the culture of remembrance and places of remembrance. Finally, I would like to point out that the majority of the episodes were recorded during the ongoing competition for the memorial site. If you have any questions, requests or suggestions regarding the individual episodes, please contact us by email at podcast@innsbruck.gv.at. As I said, we'll be starting next week and, as always, we'd be delighted if you listened to the episodes. [Tobias: Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. #00:02:04-8#

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the first episode of our dritten season of Archivwürdig,

[00:00:06] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archives.

[00:00:10] At the beginning of our season I invited Sabine Pitscheider to talk to us.

[00:00:15] Sabine has been researching the Nazi era in Tyrol for many years and was part of the expert commission

[00:00:21] for the new memorial site and co-authored a study on the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:00:28] Together we talk mainly about the Reichenau labor education camp,

[00:00:31] but also about camp and camp work in Tyrol in general.

[00:00:36] [Intro music] Tobias: Dear Sabine, thank you for talking to me today about the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:00:57] Which is also, let me say, the overarching theme of the season.

[00:01:01] And maybe let's just really start at the base with the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:01:08] How long has the Reichenau labor education camp existed?

[00:01:11] Sabine: Since the winter of 1941/42.

[00:01:14] And originally the idea was to set up a reception camp for Italian workers.

[00:01:20] Because that was exactly the time when Italian workers wanted to return home en masse from the German Reich.

[00:01:26] And many were picked up at the Brenner Pass.

[00:01:28] And the German Reich didn't want to lose any workers.

[00:01:31] And so the idea was to collect them somewhere and distribute them further, after a punishment.

[00:01:36] Because that was labor flight and was forbidden.

[00:01:39] And when the Italian government found out about it, they weren't thrilled,

[00:01:43] because officially Italy was an ally of the German Reich

[00:01:46] and you don't normally treat friends like that.

[00:01:49] And then the instruction was, well, if it's not a reception camp,

[00:01:52] then we'll make a labor education camp

[00:01:54] and there were labor education camps all over the Reich, over 100.

[00:01:58] And they were intended for discipline.

[00:02:01] For every worker, regardless of citizenship.

[00:02:04] And there the people were to be disciplined and educated to work under quotation marks, please.

[00:02:11] Educated and after a certain period of extremely bad treatment, come back to their old job

[00:02:17] and continue to talk about how bad it was for them, so that the others don't get the idea of resisting.

[00:02:23] Tobias: The choice of location, that's not entirely arbitrary.

[00:02:27] Sabine: It wasn't arbitrary, as you say.

[00:02:29] The Nazi regime needed dringend camps to accommodate the many workers,

[00:02:32] whether prisoners of war, voluntary civilian workers or forced laborers.

[00:02:36] And they mostly tried to create this infrastructure on the outskirts of towns or villages.

[00:02:43] And the first camp in Reichenau in this area, where the AEL was located, was the prisoner of war camp of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:02:50] And right after that was a civilian labor camp of the city of Innsbruck, over the years

[00:02:54] There was also a Reichspost camp and a Reichsbahn camp.

[00:02:57] And the location was favorably chosen from the Nazi point of view

[00:03:01] With the north bridge you could get to the other side of the Inn

[00:03:05] and there was a streetcar stop there.

[00:03:07] And at the same time, these camps were within walking distance of the large construction sites of the city of Innsbruck in Pradl.

[00:03:14] And therefore also accessible on foot.

[00:03:17] Tobias: You've already mentioned the other camps, which were still in urban areas.

[00:03:22] How should the labor education camp be classified in terms of size on Innsbruck soil or the importance of the camp?

[00:03:31] In contrast perhaps to the Innsbruck camps or other camps.

[00:03:35] And perhaps also, if we look a little, in relation to Tyrol, so to speak.

[00:03:41] Sabine: Innsbruck itself had, well, normally every larger municipality had its own camp.

[00:03:46] The local businesses usually rented their staff and paid for it.

[00:03:52] In other words, it was basically like a commercial enterprise.

[00:03:54] It was the same for the city of Innsbruck.

[00:03:56] And in theory, 750 people were accommodated in the camps of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:04:01] So there were 750 sleeping places.

[00:04:03] In emergencies there were often more.

[00:04:06] And then there were the company camps.

[00:04:10] That means that some companies, especially construction companies, had their own company camps.

[00:04:14] They were usually small, 100/150 men, and were then moved again when the construction site was finished.

[00:04:20] In other words, they were really traveling camps.

[00:04:23] And that means in Innsbruck itself we have the camps of the city of Innsbruck with about 750 people.

[00:04:31] The smaller company camps or larger ones.

[00:04:34] And the AEL, with 800 possible accommodation places, was one of the large camps in Innsbruck.

[00:04:43] But the largest camps in Tyrol were the power plant construction camps.

[00:04:47] So TIWAG in the Lower Inn Valley and the West Tyrolean power plants in West Tyrol.

[00:04:53] And these were, excuse me, very briefly, these were camps of 1,000, 1,500, 2,000.

[00:04:58] Tobias: As stupid as it sounds now, they were also prisoners or detainees from the camps,

[00:05:05] so they were also exchanged across Tyrol, so they came to the Lower Inn Valley for work assignments, for example.

[00:05:13] They stayed there for a while and then returned to the labor camp?

[00:05:17] Sabine: That was quite common.

[00:05:18] That is, normally a worker, whether civilian, prisoner of war or conscripted,

[00:05:24] could not choose the job.

[00:05:26] The employment office assigned them according to economic considerations.

[00:05:30] In other words, it was quite common for someone who was perhaps first at the Retter construction company's warehouse on the Ulfiswiese,

[00:05:37] then came to the Ötztal or then to the Illwerke and maybe back to the city in winter.

[00:05:42] In other words, we were always dealing with a lot of people at the same time, but they weren't always the same people.

[00:05:48] Tobias: Because we've already briefly touched on the subject.

[00:05:52] Work assignments have come to a building site, to a building project.

[00:05:58] What is the formal procedure, for example, how a company can obtain a worker?

[00:06:05] call them workers now, they're conscripted workers,

[00:06:08] is it a formal act, a letter that you send and then you get the person?

[00:06:15] Sabine: It was more complicated. [both laugh]

[00:06:18] Sabine: So it was only the employment office that was responsible.

[00:06:21] That means, if a company needed a worker, male, female, old, young, it didn't matter,

[00:06:25] an application had to be submitted to the employment office.

[00:06:28] And then you had to prove that you could accommodate the worker.

[00:06:32] That's why there were so many company camps and community camps.

[00:06:35] And only when that was secured did the employment office start looking for such a person.

[00:06:40] The Nazi regime had recruitment agreements with friendly countries,

[00:06:44] with Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary and so on.

[00:06:47] And that means that there were recruitment offices in these countries where people could apply,

[00:06:52] for a job in the German Reich, if they were healthy and able to work

[00:06:55] and not hostile, they came to work in the German Reich.

[00:06:58] Those were the volunteers.

[00:07:00] Whereby voluntariness is very relative, because if they were in the German Reich,

[00:07:03] if they didn't like the work and wanted to leave, they couldn't.

[00:07:06] And from then on it was more like forced labor.

[00:07:10] And the employment office then asked at these recruitment offices

[00:07:14] and they kept coming... either the people came to the Reich individually or on transports.

[00:07:19] And they mainly came on transports from the occupied western territories of the Soviet Union,

[00:07:26] today Ukraine and Belarus, which were subject to particularly strict regulations.

[00:07:32] They had to carry their own license plate so that everyone knew immediately,

[00:07:35] that they were dealing with "subhumans" under quotation marks.

[00:07:39] And with these deportation trains they came into the Reich all together

[00:07:43] and were then distributed to the employment offices and the employment offices then distributed them again to the individual companies.

[00:07:48] When the labor arrived, no one could say, neither the employment office nor anyone else,

[00:07:53] that means in principle the companies that really needed workers,

[00:07:57] needed an enormous amount of perseverance until they got anyone at all.

[00:08:02] They were not allowed to hire someone who had applied to them freely, that was not possible.

[00:08:06] It did happen, but theoretically it wasn't possible.

[00:08:09] The only responsible body was the employment office.

[00:08:11] Tobias: It would also have been possible for the worker simply not to have been found at all

[00:08:15] and then it never came to the transfer of a worker, so to speak?

[00:08:20] Sabine: Yes, that is quite possible.

[00:08:22] The employment office, the message was simply terse, currently not possible.

[00:08:26] [Drehgeräusch] Tobias: Maybe we should just go back to the labor education camp in Reichenau.

[00:08:34] You've already said that they are registered, in and of themselves,

[00:08:38] come in, they come from the East now, different locations,

[00:08:42] they arrive at the camp,

[00:08:44] Are they then... or how meticulously are they registered, the arrivals?

[00:08:50] Sabine: That depended on whether they were prisoners of war or civilian workers.

[00:08:54] Prisoners of war were registered in the prisoner of war camps,

[00:08:58] Most of those who came to Tyrol came from Markt Pongau, today St. Johann im Pongau.

[00:09:03] They had a number and all the correspondence was between the management of the main camp and the labor office.

[00:09:10] The company itself had nothing to do with it.

[00:09:12] It only rented the labor of these men.

[00:09:15] And every week the POW camp had to report to the mayor of the town where the camp was located,

[00:09:20] report who was currently interned in this camp, who was imprisoned

[00:09:26] and which company these people were assigned to.

[00:09:29] Most of these lists no longer exist.

[00:09:31] That was the case with civilian workers, it was under the Aliens Employment Act,

[00:09:35] just like today. There was a foreigners authority at every district administration,

[00:09:39] There was a temporary residence permit, the people were socially insured,

[00:09:44] and were given their own ID card as a foreign worker, as we know it today.

[00:09:50] Tobias: How do you see the difference now between a labor education camp and a concentration camp?

[00:09:56] Sabine: The main difference lies in the purpose of the camp.

[00:10:02] To say that now... Tobias: In general terms. It's difficult to... Sabine: It's very difficult, but normally, you have to say, in an AEL the aim was not the death of the person,

[00:10:13] because they were supposed to return to a work process.

[00:10:16] And since there was a shortage of workers, the goal was basically to maintain the workforce.

[00:10:22] That had very little to do with the practice in the labor education camp.

[00:10:30] But that's also because the Innsbruck labor education camp took on all kinds of other functions.

[00:10:37] For example, it was a transit camp for deported Jews from Italy on their way to Auschwitz.

[00:10:43] And while they were interned here, of course they also had to do work and were treated extremely badly,

[00:10:50] because, as "subhumans" in quotation marks, they had no value in life at all.

[00:10:54] Or workers who became Italians after Italy fell, from the summer of 1943,

[00:11:04] who went on strike were deported to the German Reich via the Reichenau camp.

[00:11:09] They were treated extremely badly.

[00:11:11] They got some dead bodies out of these deported Italian workers.

[00:11:15] And then the camp also had the function of, let's call it, a depot for politically unpopular people.

[00:11:25] For example, when the assassination attempt on Hitler failed in the summer of 1944,

[00:11:29] there were arrests all over the Reich.

[00:11:31] And also in Tyrol, where those who were considered political enemies were interned in the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:11:38] That was the case again in April 1945.

[00:11:42] Or we have this action in the spring of 1943, that the Gauleiter Hofer wanted to get Tyrol free of Jews at all costs

[00:11:50] and simply had the Jewish spouses of Aryans in Aryan marriages arrested

[00:11:56] and deposited them in the Reichenau labor education camp on their way to Auschwitz.

[00:12:02] These people were treated differently again.

[00:12:04] That means, on the one hand, we have this labor education, where the goal was not to kill,

[00:12:09] because the labor force should be preserved and then we had people imprisoned there again,

[00:12:14] where it didn't matter whether they lived or died.

[00:12:17] And that simply has to do with the change in function of the camp, that it's very difficult to say,

[00:12:22] where the difference to a concentration camp should actually be.

[00:12:26] Tobiaa: I understand, because the, the, the groups of people in the camp are already different.

[00:12:32] Sabine: It simply depended on how the Nazi regime categorized a person in terms of their "value".

[00:12:38] And there were worthless people and people who were more valuable.

[00:12:42] So the regulations actually said that someone should stay there for a maximum of 56 days for labor training.

[00:12:48] And work education meant forced labor, usually for the city of Innsbruck.

[00:12:52] Tobias: You said normally, that is, that is never the ... so ...

[00:12:56] Sabine: Over time, the longer the war lasted, the more likely it was that regulations were simply ignored.

[00:13:02] And, for example, this limit of 56 days did not apply to the so-called Eastern workers and to these deportees from the Western Soviet Union.

[00:13:09] They were allowed to be exploited indefinitely, because they were at the very, very bottom of the hierarchy of human value anyway.

[00:13:18] And that's why ... so it's very difficult to say.

[00:13:22] Tobias: It's not easy.

[00:13:23] And that's why I thought I'd ask anyway, because it's for the people there draoutside,

[00:13:29] because you always hear about the Reichenau labor education camp but ...

[00:13:32] Sabine: What is that?

[00:13:33] Tobias: What is that and why are there concentration camps, why are there reception camps, this camp, there ...?

[00:13:39] Sabine: Yes. The German camp system was very difficult with the different functions that were written into it.

[00:13:45] Because now, for example, a normal..., so in a prisoner of war camp the aim was not to kill.

[00:13:50] Tobias: Yes. Sabine: The goal was to exploit labor.

[00:13:52] So in a labor prisoner of war camp.

[00:13:55] In the main camps, for example, the more westernized you were, the more likely you were to survive.

[00:14:02] So a Soviet prisoner of war, the probability of survival of a Soviet prisoner of war was low,

[00:14:07] because they were simply treated worse.

[00:14:09] Because depending on where someone came from, you got the food... the amount of food... or not.

[00:14:17] Tobias: The same will apply to prisoners of war.

[00:14:19] Sabine: Also. Even though the Stalagleitung usually made the regulations for prisoners of war.

[00:14:26] The regime itself could not intervene in that way.

[00:14:29] And the Stalag really had to act in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

[00:14:34] The Nazi regime could not intervene as radically as it does now in a civilian labor camp.

[00:14:40] The situation was different in a civilian labor camp.

[00:14:43] There was no Red Cross and no Geneva Convention.

[00:14:46] Normal human rights would have sufficed, but human rights simply didn't exist under the Nazi regime.

[00:14:50] At least not for these people.

[00:14:52] Tobias: Subtle difference.

[00:14:53] Sabine: There is a difference.

[00:14:54] Tobias: But the one that makes a lot of difference.

[00:14:56] Sabine: It makes a lot of difference.

[00:14:57] For example, from the time that... let's say the spring of 1942,

[00:15:02] the Nazi regime had begun to deport millions of people from the western territories,

[00:15:05] the Soviet Union.

[00:15:07] And from then on, the number of prisoner of war camps tended to decrease.

[00:15:12] And more Eastern labor camps were set up.

[00:15:15] Because they were simply... were worse to treat without being harmed.

[00:15:20] Because if you look at discipline, for example, if a prisoner of war tried to escape,

[00:15:25] tried to escape, which happened very often, because the borders were close and very tempting.

[00:15:30] Then the Wehrmacht was responsible.

[00:15:32] In other words, they were picked up again.

[00:15:34] Wehrmacht officers were informed, they were picked up and taken back to the main camp.

[00:15:39] If a civilian worker tried to escape, the Gestapo was responsible.

[00:15:42] That means it was simply much easier.

[00:15:44] Less need for coordination, close chain of command.

[00:15:48] And civilian workers, especially the so-called Eastern workers, earned extremely little money.

[00:15:54] It wasn't a wage, it was a kind of expense allowance.

[00:15:57] And they got less food than others.

[00:16:00] So you couldn't fob off an Italian worker with the food that Eastern workers got.

[00:16:06] Tobias: You just mentioned that the escape attempts, especially by prisoners of war, are in your research,

[00:16:13] Did you find out that there were also escape attempts from the labor education camp?

[00:16:17] Successful or unsuccessful?

[00:16:20] Sabine: None.

[00:16:21] Tobias: None, right?

[00:16:22] Sabine: No, so not according to the files.

[00:16:25] And the problem with the files is that the Gestapo burned their files in April 1945.

[00:16:32] That means we often only know about the labor education camp from court cases,

[00:16:38] from death certificates, from eyewitness testimony, but not really from our own files.

[00:16:45] Tobias: That would be the next question anyway, how difficult it is,

[00:16:49] to somehow trace a camp of that size, where a lot of the files have been destroyed.

[00:16:57] Sabine: Interestingly, there are relatively many files hidden in municipal archives,

[00:17:00] many documents. That would have to be examined more closely, the community chroniclers would have to,

[00:17:04] local chroniclers would have to look into this matter, because municipal archives often contain real treasures,

[00:17:09] that no longer appear anywhere else. You can get a lot of information from court records,

[00:17:16] after 1945, the trials before the People's Court, which not only punished high treason,

[00:17:22] but also war crimes. That's when you get a trial against someone,

[00:17:29] who mistreated prisoners of war or civilian workers, you get information about how the individual

[00:17:34] camp functioned. You actually get information from many different sources,

[00:17:40] State building authorities, when it comes to finding a suitable location for a camp. Or when

[00:17:45] a company wants to build a warehouse and turns to the Innsbruck city building authority and the

[00:17:50] city planning office says, no, we don't want a warehouse to be immediately visible at the entrance to the town,

[00:17:54] because it really deters tourism. And that's why, for example, this camp in the

[00:18:00] Reichenau, they were all relatively close together, simply because the Gauleiter said,

[00:18:05] I don't want the camps to be spread all over the city, it's not safe

[00:18:08] simply an absurdity. The companies wanted, it was a bit of a clash, the companies wanted the

[00:18:12] camps as close as possible to their own premises and the Gauleiter wanted them as close as possible to

[00:18:16] concentrated in two places so that not everyone would notice it right away. Tobias: That's a good point anyway

[00:18:22] point you're making, that not everyone notices them. I only know it from some

[00:18:27] or at least from an interview I did with a contemporary witness who said,

[00:18:31] she never saw them marching through, the forced laborers. How do you see that? It must have been

[00:18:39] the people, especially if they were used by companies for work assignments, they had to be

[00:18:45] actually know where the people are from or where they are, not where their original home is,

[00:18:51] but where they are at the moment. Sabine: Mhm. Yes. Tobias: So the statement, so to speak, however you have it, you didn't know anything.

[00:18:58] Sabine: No, that's not credible. Forced laborers were in every community, even in the smallest one, and if they were

[00:19:04] only with one farmer, they were everywhere. And in the city they didn't hide at all

[00:19:11] concealment at all, because the prisoners of the AEL, for example, had to wear their own clothes and were made of

[00:19:15] lack of resources, they no longer had their own clothes, so the Gestapo simply used the

[00:19:18] the prisoners' civilian clothes with oil paint. So that you could recognize that they were prisoners.

[00:19:23] And normally people wore civilian clothes. That means,

[00:19:28] Civilian workers arrived in civilian clothes and prisoners of war wore uniforms,

[00:19:34] which made their escape more difficult. Because it allowed the prisoner of war to escape successfully,

[00:19:39] he needed civilian clothes and what was also very difficult is that prisoners of war were given

[00:19:44] money for their work, but not in Reichsmarks, but in camp money. These were vouchers,

[00:19:49] that could only be exchanged in the camp canteen. In other words, if someone wanted to successfully

[00:19:53] wanted to escape, they firstly needed a good knowledge of geography and secondly, if possible, a little knowledge of the language,

[00:19:59] drittens civilian clothes and fourthly real money. Tobias: Mhm. Not so easy to get. Sabine: Difficult.

[00:20:06] Tobias: And especially without the help of a local population. Sabine: That has the help of the

[00:20:11] local population. Tobias: Right.

[00:20:13] [Drehgeräusch] We've talked a lot about the forced laborers, prisoners of war. Were there any

[00:20:23] female prisoners in Reichenau or in the whole of Tyrol?

[00:20:28] Sabine: So prisoners of war are male per se. That is clear. Among the civilian labor force

[00:20:34] you have to differentiate between those who came from allied countries,

[00:20:37] who were theoretically volunteers. Then those who come from neutral states, in Vorarlberg

[00:20:43] it mainly concerns citizens from Switzerland. Or where citizenship is unclear.

[00:20:49] But if you look, if you look, there are different statistics for different

[00:20:52] points in time, in December 1943 almost drei quarter of all those employed in Tyrol were

[00:20:59] civilian workers from occupied countries, who were probably not there voluntarily. And if you look at these

[00:21:06] these almost drei quarters again, then you have to say that the overwhelming majority

[00:21:12] of them came either from Poland or from the occupied western territories of the Soviet Union and here

[00:21:17] especially from Ukraine. And what you see again is, if you look at it by gender

[00:21:22] that the vast majority of these forced laborers were women. That means,

[00:21:29] from the spring of 1942, forced labor not only tended to become more female, but and

[00:21:34] very importantly, tended to be younger. These people were deported from the age of 14,

[00:21:39] but younger ones were also possible. That means that in most of the camps, which were mainly

[00:21:44] work with Easter workers are young people. Tobias: But they weren't mainly in Reichenau

reichenau [00:21:51]. Sabine: No, they were mainly in agriculture, in the so-called development cooperatives.

[00:21:56] Every year the Gau appointed Aufbaugemeinden and they were especially subsidized with money,

[00:22:02] Construction of goods roads, cable cars, etc. And each of these development communities had

[00:22:08] its own, a so-called Russian or Eastern workers' camp. And the majority of them were female.

[00:22:13] Tobias: Hard to imagine actually. Sabine: Hard to imagine. On the other hand, the Nazi regime

[00:22:18] people from the East a low human value. What these women

[00:22:22] happened to these women was that they were not only extremely exploited. Textile industry, textile industry,

[00:22:27] agriculture, sometimes also in construction. They also had to suffer, for example,

[00:22:31] when they became pregnant, they were subjected to forced abortions.

[00:22:34] Tobias. I could also imagine... Sabine: And of course there were also rapes.

[00:22:38] Tobias: I was just going to... Sabine: Right. Tobias: That... Sabine: Yes, that's a side effect of coercion.

[00:22:44] Tobias: That means they were in their own camps in the places, in the areas of operation.

[00:22:49] Or is there another camp that is of interest or importance to women in that respect?

[00:22:54] importance for women? Sabine: Yes, the Gestapo AEL in Reichenau was only for men,

[00:23:00] theoretically. There were also women there, but only for a short time. And that means female

[00:23:05] Labor education prisoners were sent to the Heinkel company camp in Jenbach,

[00:23:09] today the Jenbach factory. Tobias: And do you know what happened to the women after that, so to speak, either with

[00:23:15] end of the regime, did they all return to their countries of origin?

[00:23:21] Did some of them stay there? Is that hard to grasp, probably, isn't it? Sabine: It's hard to believe.

[00:23:26] That's an empty field of research as far as Tyrol is concerned. It's important to differentiate,

[00:23:32] which country they came from. So French women, of course they went back, Dutch women

[00:23:36] and so on. But with the deportees from the East, it depends on which country they came from

[00:23:41] did they come from and do they still have family ties? Because, for example, as it is in

[00:23:45] Ukraine, Ukraine was largely destroyed. Many families simply no longer existed.

[00:23:51] The women were young, 15, 16 years old, many stayed here, some got married here

[00:23:56] and had children, quite normal. They became a Tyrolean family. Others went back and

[00:24:01] It was especially difficult to return to countries that were occupied by the Soviet army,

[00:24:07] because many were suspected of having been involved with the enemy, regardless of whether they were now

[00:24:12] deported or not. And they were considered traitors to the people and traitors to the country.

[00:24:18] It was very, very difficult. And what else there was, we have some large camps in Tyrol

[00:24:23] camps. The largest camp for former forced laborers was the one in Kufstein on the barracks grounds.

[00:24:29] And from 1945/46, the UN refugee aid organization at the time made an effort,

[00:24:36] to find host countries for them. So emigration to South America, USA, France,

[00:24:43] Away from Europe.Dre[Tobias: And let's jump back in time a little bit. We're going to the end

[00:24:54] of the war. The camp has been liberated. Are there any reports like the liberation of the

[00:25:01] camp or memories of the liberation of the camp? Sabine: There are initial investigations,

[00:25:06] because the Americans arrived with their own war crimes unit. There are

[00:25:12] first reports from this war crimes unit, which tried to take witness statements,

[00:25:17] also with perpetrators. But there was an exchange of zones at the beginning of July 1945. And then came the

[00:25:23] French military government and they had to start all over again. And that means,

[00:25:28] we actually had to wait until the big trial against the Gestapo chief Hilliges and some

[00:25:33] perpetrators of the AEL, there were rumors and there were always smaller trials, but this

[00:25:39] big, concentrated information we actually only got with the investigations against these

[00:25:45] persons. Tobias: And are documents from the investigations probably still kept in Paris? Or

[00:25:51] are there also local ones? Sabine: They are partly in Paris because the trial against Hilliges and the

[00:25:57] others did not take place before an Austrian court, but before a [00:26:00] French court

[00:26:00] French court in Innsbruck. Tobias: Im... what's it called... In? Sabine: In the Landhaus. Yes, because as soon as one of the abused or

[00:26:10] dead were members of the Allies, so US-Americans, British and so on, the

[00:26:16] French military justice took over. And that was a high court in Innsbruck.

[00:26:21] And that means that in the Reichenauprozess we have documents from Paris on the one hand,

[00:26:26] but also a lot of investigation documents from Innsbruck itself. Tobias: Are there also figures,

[00:26:31] how many have been charged? Well, I don't want to go into the persons in [00:26:36] detail

[00:26:36] in detail, but basically how many indictments there are, how many

[00:26:39] I don't know how many acquittals, if any, and so on. Sabine: At the trial of

[00:26:45] Hilliges, five men were still on trial. All five were perpetrators of the labor education camp.

[00:26:51] The problem was that when the Nazi regime collapsed in the summer of 1945, there was chaos,

[00:26:59] and many of the perpetrators of the labor education camp were Reich Germans. And in the summer of 1945

[00:27:07] the wish of the Tyrolean provincial government and also the French military government in the country,

[00:27:13] to deport as many people as possible so that fewer people needed food. And the

[00:27:18] Germans were seen as a security risk and as carriers of National Socialism, which allowed

[00:27:23] to pretend that Tyroleans had always been well-behaved and democratic. All right, in any case

[00:27:29] it means that many of the perpetrators of the AEL were interrogated, some were also interned,

[00:27:36] but were then expelled as Reich Germans. And we have some trials in Germany in part

[00:27:44] only in the 70s against these perpetrators. They were deported and then they were gone. There were

[00:27:49] there were always requests, when the French military went, yes, we need him for questioning,

[00:27:52] Yes, we're sorry, he's gone. That is, but you can't do that to the Tyrolean authorities

[00:27:59] because they didn't know that at the time. Tobias: That means, actually, they went to

[00:28:04] Germany, then somehow the thread broke, so to speak. Sabine: Exactly, that is, and then

[00:28:10] they could no longer be tried in Austria. There were always investigations

[00:28:15] against these people, but the Federal Republic did not extradite them for political offenses.

[00:28:18] Gauleiter Hofer, for example. Tobias: I was just going to say, Gauleiter Hofer the most prominent example? Sabine: Most prominent example, the act is

[00:28:24] several tens of centimeters thick and those were always extradition requests, but the Federal Republic of Germany has

[00:28:30] not extradited and many of these perpetrators of the AEL, they were quite normal, they were normal

[00:28:37] people, they went back to their civilian jobs, lived quite happily and often only decades

[00:28:42] later, it came up and then it needed dedicated courts and that was in the

[00:28:48] Federal Republic of Germany was no different to ours. It takes dedicated courts to bring perpetrators to justice.

[00:28:52] [Drehgeräusch] Now the labor education camp has been liberated. But the camps will not be destroyed, they will remain

[00:29:01] preserved, I think they will remain in municipal ownership. The subsequent use is also...is also

[00:29:06] an explosive time, you have to say. Shall we briefly look at the individual case of the labor education camp?

[00:29:13] Reichenau and then perhaps in a second step, what it was like in Tyrol.

[00:29:19] Sabine: Yes, the labor education camp did not belong to the city of Innsbruck, it belonged to the regional labor office

[00:29:24] and therefore the state building authority and the state building administration was responsible, where, by the way

[00:29:29] the files are located. A camp per se, these were barrack settlements and depending on the type of construction, that is, depending on the

[00:29:37] earlier the camp was built, the better it was structurally because it was built on a concrete foundation

[00:29:42] foundation. The later it was built, the worse the structure was, because then

[00:29:47] at most there was a pile grid foundation and they were verydroaffected by decay. But in view

[00:29:52] housing shortage, the camps simply remained until well into the 1960s and sometimes into the early 1970s

[00:29:59] were used as emergency housing. The Reichenau camp complex, including prisoners of war,

[00:30:05] Civilian workers' camp of the city, railroad and post office, AEL, were used as an army discharge point,

[00:30:11] because every Wehrmacht soldier who came back to Innsbruck needed a discharge paper,

[00:30:16] that was done there draoutside, both the Americans and then the French

[00:30:20] military government used the camp as an internment camp for Nazis before it was decided

[00:30:25] what happened to them was court, deportation etc. And the city of Innsbruck always

[00:30:29] tried, as soon as a barrack became free, they tried to set up emergency apartments there.

[00:30:33] In principle, a poor settlement was created and that happened in many camps in Tyrol,

[00:30:38] For example, the camp of the cutlery factory in Schwaz was later rebuilt after

[00:30:42] internment camp also became a poor settlement. Barracks were a coveted commodity. And in view of

[00:30:50] the many bombing raids in the city of Innsbruck, the housing shortage was simply so great that one had to

[00:30:53] really every room that was somehow suitable as a place to sleep. Tobias: In the

[00:30:59] Ideally, only temporarily. Sabine: Ideally temporarily, some people are,

[00:31:03] have been there for many, many years because they were simply too poor and earned too little,

[00:31:07] to afford decent housing. That was a slum. Tobias: As far as I know, there was also one in Wörgl

[00:31:11] there was one in Kufstein... Sabine: Many, in every municipality where there was a camp,

[00:31:16] they were emergency housing afterwards. Unless the barracks were in such a miserable state,

[00:31:20] that nothing really worked anymore. Tobias: It's really tough when you think about it. Sabine: It's tough. Because the

[00:31:26] barracks that were built later, because the Nazi regime also made

[00:31:30] made distinctions as to who lived there drin. That is to say, if they tended to use Reich German

[00:31:35] workers, then the barracks were usually double-walled,

[00:31:39] with a layer of insulation in between or with double-glazed windows. Was it just a barrack for

[00:31:44] Russians, it was a windowless thing. So they also attached great importance to that,

[00:31:50] that you could tell from the type of accommodation what value the people had.

[00:31:53] Tobias: Again, a very stupid question on my part, but did it then come to sarnation work on these

[00:32:00] yes, bad barracks, be it in Reichenau or whatever else in Tyrol,

[00:32:07] that the windows were changed... Sabine: Yes.

[00:32:11] Tobias: That was already, wasn't it? Sabine: Mhm. Well, the city, the municipal building authority of Innsbruck has been very

[00:32:16] to keep these emergency barracks in Reichenau up to standard,

[00:32:20] where they say, yes, it's just about suitable for people.

[00:32:25] Tobias: And then I think until the 60s? Sabine: Until the 60s, until the construction of the municipal building yard there draußen.

[00:32:32] Tobias: And that's when the entire camp complex, so to speak, was...

[00:32:38] Sabine: Yes, then all the barracks were torn down, the last remaining barracks were torn down.

[00:32:42] A new road network was laid out, Rossaugasse, Trientlgasse and so on,

[00:32:46] None of that had existed before. And businesses were established.

[00:32:50] In other words, we see exactly nothing in Reichenau today.

[00:32:54] Tobias: Except for the memorial stone and hopefully a memorial site. Sabine: Exactly.

[00:32:59] Tobias: Finally, a question on my part, do you think it would be very useful to talk about the camp

[00:33:08] more research time in the whole of Tyrol?

[00:33:13] Sabine: Yes, it would make a lot of sense. What I have worked on are the files of the Office of the Tyrolean Provincial Government,

[00:33:19] State Building Authority and Water Management Authority etc. Files of the district administration, which is just largely

[00:33:24] still missing, because the effort would also be very great, are files in municipal archives.

[00:33:29] But the municipal chroniclers [outro music starts in the background] would simply be called upon to take up the subject.

[00:33:33] [Outro music] Tobias: Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the second episode of our dritten season of Archivwörtig,

[00:00:05] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive.

[00:00:08] After talking about the creation of the labor education camp in Reichenau in the first episode,

[00:00:14] in this episode, we look at the study that was carried out on the camp.

[00:00:19] I have invited the co-author of the study, Horst Schreiber, to join us.

[00:00:24] Horst Schreiber conducts intensive research on contemporary historical topics in Tyrol

[00:00:29] and is, among other things, director of the Michael Gaismair Society and of erinnern.at

[00:00:34] and, like Sabine Pitscheider, was a member of the expert commission for the Reichenau.

[00:00:40] In our conversation, we talk about the genesis of the study,

[00:00:44] what difficulties arose during the research and also go into details of the study.

[00:00:50] [Intro music]

[00:01:05] Tobias: Dear Horst, thank you for your time.

[00:01:08] We mainly talk about the Reichenau labor education camp in our season.

[00:01:14] You are very much involved from the research side, working on the Reichenau camp.

[00:01:23] I've already spoken to Sabine about the camp situation in Tyrol in general,

[00:01:28] but then also specifically about the Reichenau labor education camp, how it started, the changes.

[00:01:36] And today I would like to talk to you about a study commissioned by the city of Innsbruck,

[00:01:45] to the Science Office, in which you are involved, and the study was then carried out by yourself

[00:01:52] and also at this point mentioned Sabine Pitscheider, who also took part in the study.

[00:01:56] Can you perhaps tell us a little bit about how the study came about, how you were commissioned?

[00:02:03] why this study is being carried out?

[00:02:05] Horst: Well, the fact is that the city of Innsbruck set up a working group drei years ago,

[00:02:14] to think about how a dignified commemoration could be in the Reichenau,

[00:02:22] to also make a new memorial sign, new forms of memorial signs and a call for tenders

[00:02:31] which is currently underway, because this memorial stone was there in 1972,

[00:02:41] where the camp was located in Reichenau.

[00:02:46] That was very, very early by the standards of the time, because that was actually the memorial landscape in Tyrol,

[00:02:54] In the 80s, memorials began to be made more strongly, but not really,

[00:02:58] only in the 90s and 00s.

[00:03:00] But the memorial sign is, of course, something that today, both in terms of the inscription and the aesthetics

[00:03:10] is of course no longer so contemporary half a century later and because, especially in Reichenau

[00:03:18] a lot has happened with new buildings, conversions etc., so the location is also very unfavorable.

[00:03:27] That was the background.

[00:03:29] And Sabine Pitscheider and I were on this commission and in the course of this it was also clear from our side,

[00:03:40] that there must also be a certain form of personalization, whatever a memorial sign will look like,

[00:03:49] but that is a prerequisite and that it is also necessary to at least take an approach,

[00:03:57] how many people died there in the first place and what can be determined.

[00:04:04] As I said, very, very late.

[00:04:07] We put forward that it was necessary and then the commission or the city of Innsbruck quickly decided,

[00:04:15] that we would pursue it more professionally.

[00:04:18] And as I said, the documentation level is the file situation is very difficult

[00:04:27] and so on the one hand there are the investigations that the Austrian side, i.e. the Tyrolean courts, have carried out,

[00:04:35] about individual perpetrators or people who were suspected of having committed crimes

[00:04:41] and on the other hand, of course, the very broad surveys that the French authorities carried out after 1945,

[00:04:51] which ultimately resulted in a major process that was organized by the now military government,

[00:05:01] i.e. by appropriately professionally trained judges etc.

[00:05:05] And that used to be such a large inventory to look through

[00:05:11] and on the other hand it was clear that people died in the camp,

[00:05:16] But the people also died in the hospital in Innsbruck or in the hospital, that is, in blocks of the hospital,

[00:05:24] Hall died.

[00:05:26] On the one hand, you had to look at the autopsy findings, which still exist,

[00:05:31] just look through the city archives, a bit about Hall as well

[00:05:35] and I just found a collection in the archives in Paris,

[00:05:42] where these reports contained the coroner's findings from Innsbruck and Hall.

[00:05:49] In other words, that was practically the fund that we worked with

[00:05:54] and then came up with this total of 112 people.

[00:06:01] In the meantime, we're already at 114 or 116 people,

[00:06:05] because of course the whole thing is never completely finished

[00:06:08] and on the other hand there is a problem, namely there are many, many people from the camp,

[00:06:20] where it was practically a transit camp, came to Dachau.

[00:06:25] Also in other concentration camps Auschwitz etc. but to Dachau.

[00:06:28] And then it's very difficult for you to distinguish

[00:06:32] and of course there were some who were already so physically exhausted,

[00:06:41] so shortly before their death, be it, the one problem is the food, so malnutrition

[00:06:48] and the other difficulty is that excessive violence was practiced.

[00:06:54] And we can clearly assume that in many cases, I think, we could say on the basis of the files.

[00:07:03] So they still came to Dachau, but they were practically already [short laugh] dead beforehand.

[00:07:08] And those who were already close to death so that they wouldn't die in the camp, who were quickly transferred,

[00:07:14] So we can't find out that number.

[00:07:19] Tobias: You said that there were many of the at least 114 dead in the Reichenau camp.

[00:07:26] How can you read that from the sources, is it clearer for the listeners?

[00:07:32] is it written like this drinnen, died in the Reichenau camp, what causes of death were recorded there?

[00:07:39] was it made so obvious?

[00:07:42] Horst: Well, one thing is clear, it's a procedure, as it is in peacetime.

[00:07:49] It needs a coroner's report and a statement of the reason why someone died.

[00:07:57] That's also the case in the extermination centers, be it for people with mental illnesses in Hartheim,

[00:08:05] the case or in the concentration camps.

[00:08:07] The problem is, as you ask the question, which of these is true?

[00:08:13] Now it's the case that most of them were made by the camp doctor, Alois Pizzinini,

[00:08:21] who came maybe twice a week.

[00:08:24] On the one hand, you have to say that in a number of cases you can prove that it's "fake" [forged].

[00:08:31] Where he also says at the trial, the camp manager told me exactly

[00:08:35] I have to write in a medical cause.

[00:08:38] Otherwise, there are certainly causes of death that we can explain very well.

[00:08:46] So, simply put, the one that's so common is pneumonia.

[00:08:52] Why is that?

[00:08:54] Well, one of the perverse forms of punishment was the so-called cold bath.

[00:09:02] So, especially in winter or in fall, late fall at low temperatures.

[00:09:09] And then the corresponding prisoner in the so-called bunker.

[00:09:14] That was a tiny holding cell

[00:09:17] which was freezing cold, not heated, cold concrete floor in there.

[00:09:23] And a whole series of prisoners died there.

[00:09:27] Whereby it was always the full intention that they should die.

[00:09:32] And apart from that, it was only under the guiding signs of the punishment from which they died.

[00:09:39] The other are then various causes of death, where it becomes quite clear to us,

[00:09:45] These are causes of death that arise due to malnutrition.

[00:09:51] So, the body is weakened, it is weakened for infectious diseases etc.

[00:09:58] So, that's how you can imagine it.

[00:10:00] And you always have to take a very, very critical look at what is listed here as the cause of death drin.

[00:10:08] As I said, we can link the storage conditions to a number of causes of death.

[00:10:13] And with others, well, things that have something to do with the heart are always very common.

[00:10:21] Now it can often be true in that sense.

[00:10:25] I'm not a doctor, but most of the time, you don't die from one cause.

[00:10:31] But this last cause can be true, but it doesn't explain why it happens.

[00:10:37] At some point the heart stops.

[00:10:39] So, as I said, we can explain a lot and some things are highly questionable.

[00:10:45] Tobias: And if I have it right in my head, many people have also been mistreated with punishments,

[00:10:50] and then also with beatings, which is also reflected in the mortuary reports.

[00:10:56] Where it's then about a large or death by sepsis, because the wounds and the people,

[00:11:03] who were of course punished were not treated by a doctor.

[00:11:06] Horst: Yes, that's a very big, important topic and a very exciting topic that I would like to discuss in more detail.

[00:11:15] Based on these two people, Alois Pizzinini and Matthias Köllemann, one is the camp doctor,

[00:11:20] and the other is the so-called medical officer.

[00:11:23] With Pizzinini, that's interesting, to say what is a porter, who is a porter,

[00:11:29] who has what responsibility, he goes in at most twice a week, he's very willing,

[00:11:37] then always presents himself as someone who couldn't have done anything at all.

[00:11:41] And Matthias Köllemann, he's much stronger than the perpetrators, he refuses the prisoners en masse,

[00:11:50] who would have been dependent on care.

[00:11:55] And after the inmates are maltreated to an extremely high degree,

[00:12:01] beaten green and blue, from wooden sticks to billets, whips, fists, kicks etc.,

[00:12:11] it is clear that wounds are wounds, these wounds do not heal because the appropriate care is lacking,

[00:12:19] they become inflamed, and if the body gets too little to eat at the same time, it is more susceptible.

[00:12:26] And beyond that is one of the essential levels of the Gestapo camp, the labor education camp,

[00:12:32] Reception camp, transit camp, transit camp, camp for political prisoners,

[00:12:38] yes, something where forced labor is performed.

[00:12:41] In the camp, but above all in the various field detachments and also when the prisoners

[00:12:49] is in a very bad physical condition or has just been severely beaten,

[00:12:56] over time, only a very, very small proportion of prisoners are allowed to walk or if they are almost unable to walk at all,

[00:13:04] that they are taken to the infirmary in the sanitary barracks.

[00:13:09] That means they have to continue working in such catastrophic physical conditions.

[00:13:16] And this whole complex of working and living conditions, like in this case wounds, wounds do not heal,

[00:13:25] there's gangrene etc., that's another reason, because you're very, very right,

[00:13:31] why so many have died.

[00:13:34] Tobias: You have now collected a lot of data, a lot of biographical data as well.

[00:13:40] Based on that, you can also make larger statistics of the camp and in this case, of course, of the dead in the camp.

[00:13:50] Can we perhaps also go into this very briefly, on the one hand, where did they come from, or

[00:13:56] In this case, only the dead of many of them, we don't know where they came from or where they went.

[00:14:01] Just look at the nationalities and maybe the age a little bit,

[00:14:07] How old were they on average, which age groups were more present, which less.

[00:14:12] Horst: Well, in any case, a typical feature of the camp is that it was initially intended as a reception camp for Italians,

[00:14:22] who initially came here in friendly status under Mussolini as normal civilian workers,

[00:14:30] but who then wanted to return home because the conditions, pay, work, leisure time, bombs in Germany were so bad,

[00:14:43] that they wanted to go back and then they were caught and re-educated through work.

[00:14:50] That means that among the dead we have one, the strongest group, practically the Italians.

[00:14:58] But here you have to say that this large number of deaths is due to this,

[00:15:04] in the case of Italian nationals, that they first appear on a massive scale,

[00:15:09] when Mussolini was overthrown in 1943 and Italy changed fronts.

[00:15:16] The Italians were given a new status from a friendly state to military internees

[00:15:22] and here we also have Italians everywhere outside the Reichenau camp,

[00:15:29] initially fought as friends with the other German soldiers, whether it was in Greece or here with us,

[00:15:38] They are now treated the worst alongside Jews, Jews and the so-called Eastern workers, i.e. the Soviet states and Poland.

[00:15:48] What's very interesting here, beyond the Reichenau camp, is that Tyroleans and South Tyroleans also treated Italians very badly,

[00:15:56] because here this story of the Walschen, the South Tyrolean question, again they are cowards and change fronts.

[00:16:05] So the Italians are now being attacked with tremendous brutality.

[00:16:09] In Greece, for example, they're being shot by the hundreds.

[00:16:14] That is also reflected in Tyrol.

[00:16:18] The Italians didn't necessarily only come from Tyrol, they also came from Germany or other areas of present-day Austria

[00:16:25] and in the last two years of the war they were treated incredibly brutally, which is why so many people died.

[00:16:31] The other thing that is quite typical are the two nationalities that are at the very, very bottom of the Nazi racial hierarchy.

[00:16:41] Besides Jews and Jews, there are the Poles on the one hand and, as I mentioned before, the Easter workers on the other.

[00:16:50] Simply put, Soviet nationals and here very, very strongly from Ukraine,

[00:16:58] because the Ukrainians coming to Tyrol are an extremely large proportion of people who were deported here.

[00:17:09] And the age structure of these people is very, very young and that also reflects the fact that you have quite a lot of youthfulness among the murdered,

[00:17:20] is only the apparent contradiction that young people are capable of resistance, but on the one hand it has to do with the fact that they are especially

[00:17:29] are used for forced labor under the most brutal conditions. In the over 50s or

[00:17:34] old people are relatively few in number. Of the dead, as I said, Ukrainians,

[00:17:43] Soviet citizens in general and Poles are the strongest group. Together they are even more

[00:17:51] than the Italians. But otherwise number one would be Italy, Poland, Soviet Union including Ukraine,

[00:18:01] which you don't particularly say today because of this conflict, the war that's going on now. And

[00:18:07] then there are locals, Austrians, they are about 13 people and then there are a few,

[00:18:14] different countries, yes. Tobias: In the comments, in this study, it becomes a list,

[00:18:24] the victims, so to speak. Every now and then there is also a place of deployment in the notes. Where do they come from?

[00:18:33] or how do you get this information, that you can really use it selectively for companies or for

[00:18:40] locations, i.e. where they were used locally, where do you get such information? Horst: One is like this,

[00:18:46] in the coroner's report, the location must also be specified. The location is something that

[00:18:53] rule is correct, if it is stated, in the camp or somewhere outside. So you don't have to

[00:19:00] imagine, as far as the field detachments are concerned, the Reichenau camp, as well as the other camps,

[00:19:09] that were not labor camps, labor education camps Reichenau, that is also still from

[00:19:13] the Reichspost, the Reichsbahn had its own camp, two camps of the city of Innsbruck, prisoner-of-war camps [00:19:18] and the Reichsbahn

[00:19:18] camps, civilian labor camps. But all of these prisoners were sent to the external detachments of companies

[00:19:25] and one particularly inglorious company was Stippler. So a very large part

[00:19:32] of course concerns construction work or, where they are even further away, clean-up work after

[00:19:41] bombing raids, i.e. rubble plus removal of unexploded ordnance. And that was very dangerous, of course. And the

[00:19:48] Unexploded ordnance disposal was now not only in Innsbruck, but also far beyond,

[00:19:55] for example in Brixlegg. And that's where things happened with fatal consequences.

[00:20:03] Tobias: We can't name and mention all the victims in our conversation now, but that's why

[00:20:12] nevertheless, perhaps we'll look at individual fates as examples. There is one

[00:20:18] right and from my point of view it also reflects very well this vastness of where people came from

[00:20:25] to this camp in Reichenau and you've already researched drüabout that. Horst: Yes, so something,

[00:20:31] what you wouldn't expect now are Jews and Jews from Libya, who specifically had a

[00:20:40] had British citizenship. During the war, Italy was the quasi colonial ruler in

[00:20:49] Libya. And from 1942, when the war became more dynamic, dynamic in the negative sense for the

[00:20:58] German Reich and for Italy, which were allies, the anti-Jewish

[00:21:03] measures also took effect in Italy. And from 1942, the Italian authorities deported them,

[00:21:11] Libyan Jews and Jewesses to a separate concentration camp on the Tunisian border and other parts

[00:21:19] take them to Italy, to various places in Italy and then some to the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

[00:21:27] And there are 62 Libyan nationals, of Jewish-British origin, who are then sent to

[00:21:37] Innsbruck, to the Reichenau camp in the fall of 1943. And that's actually

[00:21:46] less individual people than family groups. And here we have a very interesting

[00:21:54] report from survivors, which was written soon after the liberation from National Socialism

[00:22:00] they were interviewed and that's why we have a whole range of information here,

[00:22:06] how they fared. And with this group, as I said, they were from

[00:22:14] fall 1943 to mid-April 1944 and two of them died. One

[00:22:23] young one at the age of 27, Shalom Reginiano, and on the other side a really old

[00:22:32] man, old man, where there are different dates of his birth between 70 and

[00:22:38] 85, whose grave is just at the cemetery, at the military cemetery. I came across it by chance and

[00:22:47] That was the beginning again, coincidence. What is that, what kind of name is that?

[00:22:53] and the grave has the corresponding Jewish sign. I couldn't explain it to myself

[00:23:00] and the Italian Briton, that was completely unclear and then I followed it up

[00:23:05] and then came to the conclusion that he belonged to this group. With him we know the

[00:23:09] cause of death. We do with Reginiano, which is exactly what we talked about before

[00:23:16] talked about before. A strong young man who is constantly committed to very hard work

[00:23:22] with a poor diet, who also falls ill as a result, who doesn't receive this care

[00:23:30] and who is then practically admitted to the sanitary barracks at the very end, where there are

[00:23:35] but it's too late and he dies there too. We learn from these reports of the arrival,

[00:23:46] where you are already beaten or where everyone has to strip naked. Among them are,

[00:23:51] it was actually a men's camp, but especially in this group we can see that

[00:23:55] there were always women, although, as I said, it was not intended for women

[00:24:00] that it was more the Jenbach camp, about which we know nothing, hardly anything, and there are

[00:24:08] these humiliation rituals too. The women have to strip naked under the mocking laughter

[00:24:13] of the guards. The women work in the men's camp on the outskirts, they have to go to the makeshift

[00:24:19] airport in winter, poorly clad in clogs, rags around their feet,

[00:24:27] Snow, trudging and alone people from Libya who come here with the climate,

[00:24:33] There were also a relatively large number of elderly people who suffered as a result,

[00:24:38] severe frostbite was also typical of the camp. The happiness in misfortune consisted of this,

[00:24:44] that there was a deal between the British and the Germans about the prisoner exchange,

[00:24:50] so that then the Red Cross was these 60, but 61, with 61 I say something else,

[00:25:01] they were then released in April 1944 and were able to go to Switzerland, France

[00:25:08] and they survived. There is something special, the 61st person, a woman was pregnant and

[00:25:16] she gave birth to her child in the hospital in Innsbruck, they survived and the interesting thing

[00:25:25] is that in the early noughties, when Austria first had to get comfortable under international Druck

[00:25:33] to address the issue of forced labor and also to make compensation payments,

[00:25:40] I mean compensation payments, that was 5,000, 6,000, 7,000 euros, but still, and that's where

[00:25:47] from the group of Libyan Jews, where most of them were already

[00:25:51] were already dead, two came forward and one of them was the woman, the baby at the time, who survived

[00:26:03] and who came forward when she was older and who was living in Israel at the time

[00:26:10] was living in Israel. Tobias: Of course, we've now spoken up to the time of 1945, but the study also deals with

[00:26:18] also deals with the time after that, which is also clearly stated in the preface to the study atdrÃ

[00:26:23] because there is also a research desideratum there. Let's perhaps conclude with

[00:26:29] briefly return to this period, the subsequent use, which many Innsbruck residents probably also

[00:26:35] or Innsbruck residents have also experienced, those who are still alive. Horst: Yes, so at first the camp was very

[00:26:42] was used in a multifunctional way. That means on the one hand and the photos we have of the

[00:26:49] camp are actually from the time when it was no longer a Nazi camp and there... the

[00:26:59] survivors then become refugees or "displaced persons" [person who is not resident in this place]. Then you have to

[00:27:05] you have to imagine it like this, tens of thousands of "displaced persons" from the various parts where the Nazis had

[00:27:13] occupied the various states, were also streaming through Tyrol, through Innsbruck, because many

[00:27:22] then move on or are accommodated here in various refugee camps or

[00:27:27] also Italians who want to go home via the Brenner Pass. That means we have a lot here,

[00:27:32] a lot of refugees, people who are interested can go over when they go to YouTube or Reichenau

[00:27:37] and so on, they come to a clip of a few minutes where you can see people at the

[00:27:44] train station in Innsbruck these people and also in the camp and it's primarily these

[00:27:51] people who had fled or survivors. Then the camp is also used as a kind of

[00:27:59] "Army discharge point". That means that there are masses of people who come or are released

[00:28:05] are released as prisoners of war and the French authorities first assign

[00:28:12] the people so that they, because you have to look, is this an SS man, from that area, is something

[00:28:19] investigated and then they are released and can then return to their home areas or to

[00:28:24] different areas to Tyrol. Another large group that is then created here is that the

[00:28:31] French authorities then also use the camp as a denazification camp. That means,

[00:28:37] that a lot of National Socialists are there for a certain time and we have several camps,

[00:28:44] where ex-Nazis are housed. One is this Oradour in Schwaz, the other is for example

[00:28:51] For example, Reichenau, Oradour in Schwaz and the Kufstein fortress are the biggest ones anyway. There are quite

[00:28:59] huge exchange between them. Prisoners, Nazis, wherever there's anything that needs medical attention,

[00:29:06] bigger, they come to the Reichenau because it's easier to take them to the hospital in Innsbruck

[00:29:12] or take them somewhere else. Then some took the chance to escape. Yes, and then, and that's

[00:29:19] very, very interesting. That's also a similar story to the one we have in Schwaz, like me

[00:29:25] recently investigated in Schwaz. The last stage, which is the longest, that is

[00:29:33] the accommodation of the poor. So Reichenau is a settlement for the poor. That means we have in

[00:29:41] Austria also had an incredible housing shortage in Tyrol after the war due to bombing

[00:29:49] etc. And the barrack camp existence is something that lasted well into the 1960s, even in Reichenau,

[00:29:58] until the early 1970s, dominated the cityscape, both in Innsbruck and in Schwaz,

[00:30:05] in Kufstein, in Wörgl and so on and so forth. And of course it's typical that on the one hand

[00:30:14] National Socialism in Tyrol was only researched very late, that certain topics, such as the

[00:30:21] we're talking about right now, were excessively late, too late for a lot of things, and that this was accompanied by

[00:30:29] to another topic that was and is extremely neglected, that is the history

[00:30:35] of poverty, the history of the poor. And especially in this Reichenau camp, where the marginalized

[00:30:45] people are "ghettoized", who then not only live down there as homeless people, but who

[00:30:54] are very, very quickly, badly, slandered, slandered, but who thus become such a

[00:31:02] sense of belonging to each other against mainstream society. And you have to

[00:31:08] imagine one thing, today Reichenau is clearly Innsbruck, I don't just mean as a geographical

[00:31:15] affiliation, but yes, you're there by bike, by bus and so on, but back then it was

[00:31:22] the outside, that was also one of the reasons why the Nazis used this reason,

[00:31:28] to set up the camps there. And that means that the ones in Innsbruck, they were the

[00:31:34] better ones and the ones in Reichenau, those are the abandoned ones, you could also

[00:31:40] a few areas in Innsbruck from the slaughterhouse, PremstraÃe, Stalingrad etc.,

[00:31:46] That is, that is, where are these children being educated? So this poverty that is inherited

[00:31:53] then practically continues and that goes on practically until the Olympics, where a lot of

[00:32:02] new living space is created and then the number of barracks that become more and more run-down and

[00:32:10] more and more dilapidated, they will be gradually dismantled and you can't imagine that

[00:32:19] then the poor hip-hip-hurra will all end up in the high-rise buildings. That means that there are

[00:32:26] investigations in the city of Innsbruck and a whole series of these people are considered not to be

[00:32:31] unfit to live in, so that they end up in the hotspots I just mentioned,

[00:32:39] like in Stalingrad, the slaughterhouse and so on, they were moved there or given a whole row of

[00:32:46] apartments then later in the high-rise buildings, where quite a few were no longer in the best

[00:32:53] condition. So as I said, quite a few families can move, but a lot of them are leaving

[00:33:00] from a place with a bad reputation for marginalized people to the next place with a bad reputation

[00:33:06] place. And this practically closes the circle to my other field of research, which always turns out like this

[00:33:14] overlapped, namely children and young people in out-of-home care and such barracks

[00:33:22] camps, be it Reichenau or other barracks that existed in Innsbruck. There are also

[00:33:29] very, very many so-called Yenish, who were labeled as Karner, Tyrolean gypsies, etc.

[00:33:35] An extremely large proportion of children and young people are recruited from these areas,

[00:33:41] who are placed in residential care, where the correspondingly very high proportion of the next

[00:33:48] excesses of violence then await them. As I said, the story of Amut, that's something else,

[00:33:54] where further research needs to be done. But at least some exciting things have already appeared,

[00:34:00] or also the Bocksiedlung, which is also practically a part of the Reichenau, which is also the city archive in

[00:34:06] published by Ms. Hollaus, where there are some very exciting stories. You can see,

[00:34:13] that this Nazi era reaches directly and indirectly far into the present, that it blows in and

[00:34:22] affects subject areas, geographies and other topics where we would not think,

[00:34:30] that this still has anything to do with National Socialism. [Outro music]

[00:34:33] Tobias: Archivwürrdig is a production of the Innsbruck City Archive and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:34:53] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the dritten episode of our dritten season of Archivwürdig,

[00:00:05] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive.

[00:00:08] In this episode, we take a look at the former Reichenau labor education camp from an archaeological perspective.

[00:00:14] I have invited the archaeologist Barbara Hausmair to talk about this topic.

[00:00:19] Together with her team, Barbara Hausmair was commissioned by the city of Innsbruck to carry out archaeological investigations

[00:00:25] at the site of the former camp.

[00:00:29] Together we talk about this research process, among other things.

[00:00:33] What insights were gained from the work and we also think about

[00:00:38] about further archaeological excavations in Tyrol during the Nazi era.

[00:00:56] [Intro music] Tobias: Dear Barbara, thank you for your time for being with us today.

[00:01:00] Archaeology is something you associate with when you go out into the population,

[00:01:05] mainly with, to put it bluntly, with old stuff, in other words everything that concerns quasi ancient things.

[00:01:10] In Innsbruck in particular, many people probably think of the Veldidena excavations, the Roman remains.

[00:01:17] Can you perhaps explain to us briefly, just briefly, when they started digging not even 100 years ago?

[00:01:24] Barbara: That's a very good question. In fact, the archaeology of the recent past

[00:01:28] is also a very young archaeology as a scientific discipline.

[00:01:31] In Austria, about 30 years old, if you want to look at it.

[00:01:35] And I think it's a very late development within archaeological research,

[00:01:39] because archaeology, as you say, was originally mainly concerned with older eras.

[00:01:43] That is constantly changing, because archaeology today is no longer so much about

[00:01:48] the question of the past in the sense of distance, but is actually defined by its sources.

[00:01:53] So we're actually trying to gain access to history through material remains.

[00:01:58] And it doesn't really matter what time they are from.

[00:02:01] And in recent years or decades this has also led to the development of an archaeology of the recent past,

[00:02:07] in which we are able to access this more recent past through archaeological traces.

[00:02:12] Tobias: From your point of view, is it easier to dig for more recent times than for the more distant past?

[00:02:20] Barbara: Yes and no. So I think on the one hand, if you want to look at it methodically,

[00:02:24] it is of course very exciting to research the more recent past,

[00:02:27] because we have a very dense parallel tradition through writing, images or oral sources, of course.

[00:02:32] And this creates a much denser picture and also makes the interpretation of archaeological finds

[00:02:38] much richer than is sometimes possible in prehistory, for example.

[00:02:42] On the other hand, it's also very difficult archaeology,

[00:02:45] because this past is of course very close to us dran.

[00:02:47] It's something where we still have some people who lived through the times we're researching,

[00:02:51] where family histories are shaped.

[00:02:53] And accordingly, this is very important to me, archaeology is not just a look into the past,

[00:02:58] but it is also very much about how we deal with this past today.

[00:03:02] And of course the archaeology of the Nazi era is also important here

[00:03:04] is certainly a more difficult archaeology in this respect, because we are also involved somewhere in these discourses,

[00:03:09] how do we deal with this past?

[00:03:13] And that makes it a big challenge, of course.

[00:03:16] Tobias: I've invited you now of course, maybe I haven't even mentioned it yet,

[00:03:20] but you were also involved or commissioned, I think, by the commission or by the city,

[00:03:26] in the area of the former Reichenau labor education camp

[00:03:32] So not you alone, of course, that's clear, but you and your team,

[00:03:37] excavations to find traces of the camp,

[00:03:45] can you perhaps also briefly explain to us how this assignment came about

[00:03:49] and what the process was like and maybe just who was involved.

[00:03:56] Barbara: The city of Innsbruck has been trying for some time now to create a new memorial site in Reichenau

[00:04:01] for the victims of National Socialism who were imprisoned there in the labor education camp,

[00:04:06] but also in the neighboring camp complexes, and in the run-up to this project planning, the city decided

[00:04:12] that it is certainly also essential to carry out further intensive research into the history of these camps,

[00:04:17] but also of the people who were imprisoned or died there

[00:04:23] and that has on the one hand led to very intensive research from the historical side.

[00:04:27] I believe Sabine Pitscheider will also be speaking here in this podcast.

[00:04:31] And on the other hand, this research has of course also raised the question of the exact historical location.

[00:04:38] How big was this camp complex? How was it structured?

[00:04:42] Can we actually find any information in the spatial structure about the history of these camps there in Reichenau?

[00:04:50] But of course the question also arose for the creation of the memorial site, which was certainly also in the interests of the city,

[00:04:55] are there really any material remains in the sense of buildings?

[00:04:59] that are perhaps still hidden somewhere in the industrial estate today

[00:05:04] and it was with this in mind that they approached me and my colleague Barbara Pöll from

[00:05:08] monumentGUT with the request to see if we could do something about it from an archaeological point of view.

[00:05:14] And the whole thing actually started in such a way that we initially, well, everyone who knows the Reichenau,

[00:05:18] knows that today it is a very heavily built-up commercial area, asked us the question

[00:05:23] and how can we first find out if there is anything left above ground?

[00:05:26] and how can we then assess whether there is perhaps at least archaeologically, i.e. in the soil, in the soil findings,

[00:05:31] is still preserved. And we did that initially by evaluating historical plans

[00:05:36] and also written sources and oral tradition relating to the spatial structure of the camp,

[00:05:42] but above all using aerial photographs from the time of the Second World War,

[00:05:46] which were actually taken by the Allies at the time as part of their air raids or air wars

[00:05:51] and first of all simply tried to show the entire spatial situation and the development of the camps,

[00:05:55] between 1940/41 and 1945 and beyond, of course, until the demolition of the last barracks in the 1960s.

[00:06:05] And on the basis of this aerial photo analysis, we then tried to see if there were still individual buildings somewhere,

[00:06:10] That didn't turn out to be the case, so today there are really no buildings left above ground,

[00:06:15] that would somehow still be directly connected to the camp.

[00:06:19] But we also managed to compare these historical aerial photographs with the modern aerial photographs and satellite images

[00:06:26] to identify areas that have not yet been built on deeply, i.e. that do not have basements

[00:06:32] and where there is potentially the possibility that there are still archaeological traces in the ground.

[00:06:38] Tobias: That means you've done the theoretical or partly practical work in advance.

[00:06:44] How did the excavations come about, is it very difficult with such a heavily built-up and, yes, used, I mean

[00:06:55] The building yard is still there and of course still in operation and the only one in the city, i.e. where everyone goes.

[00:07:04] Is it..., does it make the work for excavations very difficult or is it always the case or mostly the case anyway?

[00:07:15] Barbara: Of course, in urban areas, no matter what kind of archaeology you do, it's always problematic,

[00:07:20] because we simply have a very strong modern imprint.

[00:07:23] In the case of Reichenau, it was clear to us right from the start that the possibility of actually doing archaeology in the ground,

[00:07:29] would be very limited, simply because the development there is really massive,

[00:07:34] the demolition was very massive and, of course, because the area is used intensively today.

[00:07:38] All Innsbruck residents are probably familiar with the recycling center, they know how much traffic there is, even on weekends

[00:07:43] and of course the municipal building yard.

[00:07:45] But what we tried to do, actually through our aerial photo analysis, was first of all to clarify whether the potential was there at all.

[00:07:52] And when we saw that there were still very, very small residual areas in the southern area,

[00:07:56] of today's building yard, which was part of the camp area during the Nazi era, which has not yet been built on.

[00:08:01] That was of course an important indication for us that there was still some preservation in the ground,

[00:08:06] but also in the traffic areas, which are not underground.

[00:08:10] And the next step was to carry out a geophysical prospection,

[00:08:14] so a non-destructive archaeology and actually tried to find out via measurements of physical properties in the ground,

[00:08:22] whether it might still be possible to recognize lines or structures that we could connect with the camp complex.

[00:08:28] Tobias: Do you have these geophysical measurements or can you perhaps explain them a little bit more,

[00:08:33] Is that also about archaeology or do you also refer to the, stupidly said, external or from the university?

[00:08:40] parallel knowledge from other institutions that are there to support you, or is it already very much anchored in archaeology?

[00:08:48] Barbara: Here in Innsbruck, we really have the advantage that we have expertise at our institute,

[00:08:54] with Professor Grabherr, who has also been practicing geophysics, i.e. archaeological prospecting methods, for many years,

[00:09:00] and we received support from his team, with David Imre, to carry out the measurements on site.

[00:09:06] I don't want to get into the physics right now, but maybe to put it a bit bluntly,

[00:09:10] you drive over the areas of interest with measuring devices, so to speak, and then by measuring the physical properties

[00:09:16] actually creates a depth image of the ground. It's not an X-ray, but I think in layman's terms you can imagine,

[00:09:21] that it's a bit like x-raying the soil. And then you can see the structures in the soil, so to speak,

[00:09:27] that can be pipe trenches, but also, for example, the remains of foundations or something similar.

[00:09:32] And this virtual image gives you an initial insightdruinto whether there are potentially still structures there,

[00:09:38] that are actually still connected to the labor education camp, for example.

[00:09:43] Perhaps one more sentence about the fact that it was certainly particularly challenging to work on these very heavily built-up areas

[00:09:50] to do geophysics. On the one hand, there are technical measurement problems, but the big challenge is actually also,

[00:09:56] that the buildings, as they are today, essentially have exactly the same orientation,

[00:10:02] like the buildings in the labor education camp back then. And that's always one of those things,

[00:10:06] What I might recognize as lines on the aerial photographs is difficult to really determine from the virtual image, so to speak,

[00:10:14] Is this what really belongs to the warehouse or are these perhaps older line installations that no longer exist on the plans?

[00:10:20] Of course, we also need expertise from somewhere else, in this case of course from the city,

[00:10:25] which has tried to support us as much as possible with pipe plans so that we can rule out a few things in advance,

[00:10:31] what are structures that really belong to the building yard and what are potentially really structures that are still from the Nazi era?

[00:10:38] could be present in the ground.

[00:10:40] Tobias: Did the geophysical data also give rise to a suspicion that there are still remains here and there,

[00:10:49] or did you just, to put it stupidly, blindly drago for it?

[00:10:53] Barbara: No, we didn't go blindly drauf, that's why [laughs] we did it for geophysics.

[00:10:57] What we did was that we tried to see what anomalies we could see on the measurement images.

[00:11:02] And then we basically carried out a process of elimination.

[00:11:05] On the one hand, we looked to see if they matched modern pipeline plans,

[00:11:09] and then you can more or less rule out the possibility that these are historical structures.

[00:11:13] And in the second step, where we saw that we had no information that these were modern canal structures or similar,

[00:11:18] we then looked to see whether they corresponded with the infrastructure that we recognized on the aerial photographs, on the historical ones.

[00:11:24] And so it was then possible to narrow down certain areas where there was a high potential.

[00:11:30] But I would still like to point this out again [laughs] because it's important that there is of course a source of error here too.

[00:11:35] In the excavations, we actually had the case that one of these linear structures that we had in the measurement image,

[00:11:41] turned out to be a water pipe that was still in use, but simply wasn't on any pipe plan,

[00:11:46] but which would actually have fitted in well with the area of this accommodation barrack 1,

[00:11:51] which we then tried to locate and identify in the archaeology.

[00:11:56] And that's always the challenge.

[00:11:58] So geophysics is a very, very important element or a very important method for preliminary exploration.

[00:12:04] But in the end, we can only really know what we have in the ground when we actually start digging.

[00:12:13] [Drenoise] Tobias: Let's take the next step. You're really moving on to digging now, how much time has been allowed,

[00:12:23] how do you estimate how much time is used for excavation or even gets,

[00:12:30] so time, how much time you are allowed to dig at all.

[00:12:33] It's probably not just your own estimate that counts.

[00:12:37] Barbara: It's always a very nasty question when you ask archaeologists how much time they would like to have to dig.

[00:12:42] We are a very slow business [both laugh].

[00:12:44] No, we tried in this case, on the one hand because it was clear, of course,

[00:12:47] that even if we find something, it will probably only be to a very fragmented degree

[00:12:52] and actually the primary question was, are there any substantial traces left?

[00:12:56] So we agreed with the city that we would actually do a kind of small test excavation.

[00:13:01] This is basically only possible on very, very few areas on the site of the current building yard,

[00:13:06] because most of it is covered in concrete and we then decided,

[00:13:08] that we would actually make a very small cut, so to speak, in the area,

[00:13:12] which we then really excavate, in the south on this last remaining green strip,

[00:13:17] that we're going to open up at the gardening office and have scheduled a 2- to 3-week excavation for it.

[00:13:23] Really, but also with the aim of not doing anything in the end, depending on what comes out,

[00:13:28] to dig up everything completely, but simply to get a first look at the ground.

[00:13:31] Of course, we also clarified this in advance with the Federal Monuments Office,

[00:13:34] who are also responsible for this as an authority.

[00:13:37] And everyone involved actually agreed to that, so to speak,

[00:13:40] that this is basically a kind of first attempt,

[00:13:43] simply to be able to weigh up how much substance is really still there.

[00:13:48] Tobias; So what was the first onedruck [laughs] so to speak?

[00:13:51] Barbara: At the beginning, we actually had to realize that the area had been over-imprinted,

[00:13:55] namely also in the sense of the overlapping of the leveling layers,

[00:13:58] is much more massive than we had hoped.

[00:14:01] In the end, we really had to go down to 1.70 m

[00:14:04] to actually get down to the National Socialist, the Nazi layers.

[00:14:09] In other words, we can also see that the building yard area here was not only demolished,

[00:14:13] but also massive restructuring and leveling since the 1960s,

[00:14:17] but probably even later, in the 70s and 80s,

[00:14:20] we can see that in the material found in the leveling layers.

[00:14:23] And we then reached this depth partly by manual excavation,

[00:14:27] but also partly by using a mini excavator,

[00:14:30] and then actually reached a depth of 1.70 meters,

[00:14:33] then really hit the last remains of this accommodation barrack 1.

[00:14:37] Tobias: Because you already mentioned the finds briefly, what were there?

[00:14:42] or maybe just as an example, all the additional material,

[00:14:48] in addition to the remains of the foundations or the remains that came to light?

[00:14:53] Barbara: The majority of the finds, I have to be honest,

[00:14:56] is basically garbage from the time since the building yard was built,

[00:14:59] that it's what we find in the leveling layers.

[00:15:02] But we have the last few centimeters, so to speak,

[00:15:05] before these barrack remains in the form of pile foundations,

[00:15:08] concrete foundations came out, relatively very little,

[00:15:12] but finds were made, but probably from the time of the emergency housing estate,

[00:15:16] which existed in these barracks until the 1960s.

[00:15:21] And it's partly about everyday crockery and flower pots, but above all about

[00:15:26] simple packaging material that really dates back to the 50s and 60s.

[00:15:30] That was actually more from the everyday life of the people who lived there in the post-war period

[00:15:35] who moved there because of the housing shortage and then lived there until the 60s

[00:15:41] lived there.

[00:15:42] From the time of the camp itself, we actually have almost only the few findings of the

[00:15:48] building structures that have been preserved, which is hardly surprising when you look at

[00:15:52] when you consider that the AEL [labor education camp] itself basically only existed for a few years, so actually

[00:15:57] only a good four years and then really several years, so almost 20 years through

[00:16:04] this use as an emergency housing estate actually gave it a completely different function, it was

[00:16:08] originally this detention context.

[00:16:10] Tobias: And especially the barracks, they weren't built to a high standard.

[00:16:15] Barbara: Yes, so what was built down there, we actually know that from the construction documents

[00:16:20] in advance, they were so-called RAD barracks, that is, barracks that were originally built for the

[00:16:24] Reich Labor Service, but which were then actually converted into barracks during the Nazi era

[00:16:29] were used on a large scale, especially in the regime's various forced labor camps

[00:16:34] in concentration camps, in forced labor camps, but also in labor education camps

[00:16:39] in the Reichenau.

[00:16:40] These are basically makeshift buildings, which are mainly made of wood and then, however

[00:16:46] so depending on how long you actually want to use these barracks then a different

[00:16:50] substructure can have.

[00:16:51] So it can be concreted, it can be laid with strip foundations or like us

[00:16:56] the Reichenau could prove archaeologically, through actually a

[00:17:00] very simple pile foundation.

[00:17:02] And I think the essential thing dran is that you simply have to realize that the

[00:17:07] is of course not the most productive excavation from an archaeological point of view that we have

[00:17:11] at the sites of Nazi crimes, precisely because of the degree of overbuilding.

[00:17:17] But I think we're also learning a lot about the subsequent use of these areas

[00:17:20] and how quickly such crime sites can be erased from public memory by

[00:17:24] reuse, but then also through such radical demolition, as happened in the 60s

[00:17:28] could also disappear.

[00:17:30] [Drehgeräusch] Tobias: Let's perhaps move away from the Reichenau labor education camp for a moment.

[00:17:39] You've already spoken, it would be nice if there were more excavations, more archaeological ones too

[00:17:48] Excavations on buildings from the Nazi era or camps from the Nazi era, where would it be from your

[00:17:54] point of view or would there be other meaningful places where it would also, as I said, be

[00:18:00] would be good to excavate archaeologically or at least to carry out surveys, geophysical

[00:18:10] inspections, can you think of anything off the top of your head?

[00:18:14] Barbara: Yes, so if we look specifically at Tyrol, of course, we now have a

[00:18:17] quite a good overview of where there were at least storage locations, because in the last few years they have also been

[00:18:21] the Federal Office for the Protection of Monuments has carried out extensive surveys of sites and

[00:18:27] not only from this survey, but partly because the foundations of the barracks are still

[00:18:30] are still visible above ground, we know of many camp sites where we have not yet found such massive

[00:18:34] overbuilding.

[00:18:35] That's the case in Haiming, for example, or in areas near Schwaz and Kematen,

[00:18:40] where forced labor camps were built, especially for the war industry.

[00:18:44] But I'm also thinking of Vorarlberg, for example, along the Illwerke route in Montafon,

[00:18:48] that was a few years ago, which means we also surveyed [investigated] areas where we simply

[00:18:52] where there was actually no subsequent development and where some of the

[00:18:56] structure is still superficially recognizable, precisely because of the foundations that have been laid through the

[00:19:00] turf or through the forest floor.

[00:19:03] And of course these are all areas where we could potentially achieve better archaeological

[00:19:08] preservation, simply because the overprinting is not so high.

[00:19:11] But I actually think that we shouldn't restrict it just because of this overdevelopment

[00:19:15] should.

[00:19:16] I think archaeology always has two functions.

[00:19:18] One is really from a scientific perspective, that of course we try to

[00:19:22] want to find out as much as possible about a historical site and what happened there.

[00:19:26] So, of course, extensive preservation is always an advantage.

[00:19:29] But archaeology is actually, I would say, more of an intervention mode

[00:19:34] or a way of simply re-engaging with the past and its history again and again

[00:19:38] its significance for the present.

[00:19:40] And accordingly, I believe that with the many camps that have existed throughout Austria

[00:19:44] that have existed throughout Austria during this time, there is always the possibility of using archaeology as a kind of

[00:19:49] as a practice, so to speak, in order to engage with different interest groups on site

[00:19:55] to deal with these places in a new way.

[00:19:57] What then comes out, in the end, some things we can estimate quite well in advance, some things

[00:20:00] perhaps less so, and of course it needs to be scientifically processed afterwards.

[00:20:04] But I think archaeology is always a good way of interacting,

[00:20:09] to simply contribute to a visualization of these situations in the past

[00:20:13] and thus also motivate and promote a new confrontation.

[00:20:17] And we actually see that in a lot of projects.

[00:20:19] That is actually, I would like to say, the origin of archaeology, of the recent

[00:20:25] past, which actually began in the 1980s, for example in Germany

[00:20:28] started in Germany, for example, which was often really "grassroots initiatives", we would say today.

[00:20:34] So people from the local environment actually started to search for clues

[00:20:38] to confront themselves directly with the history of National Socialism on the ground.

[00:20:42] [Drehgeräusch] Tobias: Your results, now I'll jump back to the Reichenau labor camp, the results

[00:20:53] of the excavation work, your findings, will they or are they also available to the general public?

[00:21:02] public, are there, have they been published, except of course,

[00:21:08] I know there are newspaper articles, I think in the regional papers, but also in

[00:21:13] the TT, probably still available online anyway, but is there also a, I'll say now,

[00:21:17] more comprehensive report that will appear?

[00:21:20] Barbara: That's in the making right now, so to speak, also or almost in the Druck, it will on the one hand

[00:21:25] of course there will be publications where we will also present the results in depth

[00:21:30] to a scientific audience on the one hand, but also to a broader public.

[00:21:34] Here in Innsbruck, for example, we have also worked together with AFIN, the

[00:21:40] archaeological research network Innsbruck, we also take part there, which is more of a broad

[00:21:44] effective newsletter, they have also published shorter reports there.

[00:21:48] But I think that, especially when the new concept for the memorial site is actually implemented

[00:21:54] that will also include didactic materials for programs for schoolgirls, so to speak

[00:21:59] and schoolchildren or other interested population groups, so that we can of course

[00:22:04] also like to incorporate the results of archaeological research and, of course

[00:22:09] also make it available.

[00:22:11] And I believe that aerial photo analysis in particular plays a very important role here

[00:22:15] part, because it simply gives you the opportunity to see these spatial dimensions again,

[00:22:19] which are really difficult to comprehend today because of the degree of overbuilding

[00:22:24] to visualize them better and to give people a really spatial

[00:22:29] access to these places and these storage areas.

[00:22:33] Tobias: Is there anything else we should mention about your work in the Reichenau labor education camp?

[00:22:41] that we have forgotten in our conversation?

[00:22:44] Barbara: Well, I think that you can perhaps break it down a bit if you look at

[00:22:48] these different steps of archaeological research, is that we have to deal with different things,

[00:22:53] which methods we use or whether we look at it from a bird's eye view, so to speak

[00:22:57] or whether we really go into the ground, we simply have very different standards in the

[00:23:01] basically, looking at it and of course getting different information out of it.

[00:23:05] Which is a really exciting aspect for me and that's not specifically for

[00:23:10] surprising for Reichenau, but that's what we see in many other projects as well

[00:23:13] is, of course, that through this view from or from this aerial view

[00:23:18] actually quite a lot about the spatial development and the planning system during

[00:23:23] the Nazi era.

[00:23:25] On the one hand, there is, so to speak, what you intend, what you plan, what you estimate

[00:23:28] and what you actually implement.

[00:23:30] And that's something that we can actually break down quite well using various aerial images

[00:23:34] can do.

[00:23:35] On the one hand, how these areas are actually spatially structured and divided up.

[00:23:39] What was really exciting to see, for example, is that we, so

[00:23:44] we have the labor education camp in Reichenau on the one hand and north of it

[00:23:47] towards the Inn there was actually a, I always say it's a multifunctional complex,

[00:23:53] so a camp that was run by the city of Innsbruck, by the Reichspost

[00:23:56] and the Reichsbahn, where forced laborers and prisoners of war were imprisoned

[00:24:00] were then also exploited in Innsbruck.

[00:24:02] And we can actually understand quite well from the aerial photographs how these on the one hand

[00:24:07] administrative structure, but also these different groups

[00:24:11] of detainees are reflected in the spatial planning.

[00:24:14] In that there were always additional buildings, but also always

[00:24:18] the fence demarcations within the camp to separate these groups and areas actually

[00:24:22] reflected.

[00:24:23] And that is also a very important aspect in order to understand how to actually

[00:24:29] this discrimination against different groups, but also administrative management then

[00:24:33] in reality.

[00:24:34] And that works very strongly, for example, through the structuring of space.

[00:24:38] Excitingly, we see this dynamic that we actually have in this northern camp

[00:24:42] are not in the labor education camp.

[00:24:44] There we can actually say that pretty much from the beginning the entire complex was built as a building stock

[00:24:49] was built, actually, at least as it was originally planned and

[00:24:54] then relatively little actually changed in terms of the internal structure.

[00:24:57] And of course that also speaks for a certain continuity of the purpose of this

[00:25:01] camp, that it was really administered by the Gestapo, a high degree of discipline from the beginning

[00:25:07] from the beginning.

[00:25:08] And on the other hand, we can also see in the interface with other historical

[00:25:13] sources such as oral tradition through the aerial photographs,

[00:25:17] certain events that, for example, survivors report more concretely.

[00:25:22] Tobias: Because you just mentioned it, the thing I completely forgot,

[00:25:26] Of course there are oral sources, oral traditions, contemporary witnesses,

[00:25:32] etc.

[00:25:33] How, because there's always the saying that the contemporary witness is the historian's greatest enemy,

[00:25:40] Of course, that's also an exaggeration.

[00:25:44] But how do you take that to heart?

[00:25:49] Do you take it to heart?

[00:25:51] But of course you have to examine it critically?

[00:25:53] Barbara: Well, I don't think you can give a general answer as to what's really important here,

[00:25:57] that we first of all simply approach these different strands of tradition as sources

[00:26:01] which all have their justification, which all need their criticism, of course.

[00:26:05] And that we then, depending on what we're researching, really try to find out,

[00:26:09] compare these different strands of tradition with each other and find out,

[00:26:12] where they confirm each other.

[00:26:13] Where are perhaps blind spots in one tradition that we can feel through the other

[00:26:17] and where do they contradict each other.

[00:26:19] I would argue that this is not only challenging with testimonies,

[00:26:23] because, of course, testimonies, I think, have long been so important in historiography

[00:26:27] a bit disreputable because people say, yes, this is memory and this is of course

[00:26:30] overprinted.

[00:26:31] That's true, of course.

[00:26:32] On the other hand, of course, it's a very central source, because it's basically

[00:26:35] experience values and how they are processed.

[00:26:38] But of course you shouldn't confuse that with a documentary or a factual report.

[00:26:43] But that doesn't mean that contemporary witness reports don't contain information

[00:26:47] that simply reflect a historical reality.

[00:26:50] I think you just have to take that into account in the reappraisal and for that

[00:26:55] it is, of course, also necessary from an archaeological point of view that we work closely

[00:26:58] work closely with historians who can also help us to apply the necessary criticism

[00:27:02] to apply the necessary criticism.

[00:27:03] That worked really fantastically in the project.

[00:27:06] But it was similar with the written sources.

[00:27:09] I know there's always such a tendency to assume that as soon as we have administrative

[00:27:13] written material, to use that as a fact check.

[00:27:16] And that mag can sometimes be justified, but again, we always have to keep that in mind,

[00:27:21] Written material is also something that is created, produced by certain groups in the population,

[00:27:26] with intentions.

[00:27:28] Some things are well documented, some are omitted, some are perhaps even

[00:27:31] even falsified.

[00:27:32] So here, too, source criticism is important.

[00:27:33] And what we see very often in archaeology, especially with camp buildings, is that it,

[00:27:38] there is a planning phase and what you imagine, so to speak, and then there is

[00:27:41] a dynamic in the realization, which also changes in part with the war,

[00:27:46] where we see that in the buildings and also in the use that we can make of them through the

[00:27:49] archaeology, there are changes that we cannot find in the written sources

[00:27:53] not found in the written sources.

[00:27:54] There's also an example from the labor education camp.

[00:27:56] A very important element, actually, which apparently played a major role in the planning for a long time

[00:28:00] role in the planning of the AEL was that it was planned to build a prisoner barrack somewhere for political prisoners

[00:28:06] prisoners, which was not originally intended as a detention group for the

[00:28:09] focus.

[00:28:10] There are planning documents for this, which are also very advanced, including an extensive

[00:28:14] correspondence to the point that you can even see where it should be set up and we can

[00:28:19] actually refer to the aerial photographs in this case and say that this is

[00:28:22] has not been implemented.

[00:28:23] Whatever, there may be a paper trail, but it's not yet localized in the

[00:28:27] Archives.

[00:28:28] We can definitely tell what's really becoming actual inventory, so to speak.

[00:28:31] These are small things now, where it's really only about historically small specifics

[00:28:35] but of course that can also grow.

[00:28:38] We have examples from archaeological research in Germany, for example, from forced labor camps,

[00:28:42] In Brandenburg, for example, there are a lot of projects where we are using archaeology, for example

[00:28:47] really deep insight into the living conditions of different groups of prisoners,

[00:28:51] which we don't find at all in the paper trail.

[00:28:53] Kleinmachnow is such an example, that was also a camp where on the one hand really

[00:28:58] employees of the companies working there were housed, but also forced laborers, forced civilian laborers,

[00:29:03] prisoners of war and even concentration camp prisoners.

[00:29:06] And we see that apparently the companies that ran these camps were then quite

[00:29:10] systematically, depending on which category of people they imprisoned there,

[00:29:14] saved on building materials or infrastructure.

[00:29:18] So for the free laboring population, so to speak, there are well-heated

[00:29:22] Barracks with washing facilities and sanitary facilities.

[00:29:24] For the civilian forced laborers, this is already downgraded, where there are actually only so

[00:29:29] smaller furnaces and no permanently installed sanitary facilities in the barracks until then actually

[00:29:35] to the barracks for Soviet prisoners of war and concentration camp inmates, which no longer even had a

[00:29:40] heating actually.

[00:29:41] And that's what I mean, with archaeology, we actually see things on a human level

[00:29:46] level quite often

[00:29:47] what does it actually mean to be imprisoned there in certain conditions and to be able to drinnen

[00:29:51] to have to live there?

[00:29:52] On the one hand, it's the ideology, the persecution and the categorization that takes place institutionally

[00:29:57] takes place through violence against people, but then also in the implementation of course

[00:30:01] of the respective life situation.

[00:30:03] And that is the access that we have above all through archaeology, in which we can really

[00:30:06] can look at this material component. [Outro music]

[00:30:08] Tobias: Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the

[00:30:31] audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the fourth episode of our dritten season of Archivwörtig,

[00:00:07] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive. Today we are talking about the culture of remembrance and

[00:00:13] places of remembrance in general. For this I have university help with Ingrid Böhler

[00:00:18] for this. Ingrid Böhler is a senior scientist at the University of Innsbruck and head of the

[00:00:24] of the Institute for Contemporary History there. Together we approach the big topic of

[00:00:30] culture of remembrance and talk about definitions of the term and its connection

[00:00:35] with places of remembrance, how the culture of remembrance has developed in Austria and look with

[00:00:41] the points in time, a local example in Innsbruck.

[00:00:44] [Intro-Musi] Tobias: Dear Ingrid, thank you for finding the time to talk to me today. Our superordinate

[00:01:05] The topic of the drith season is the Reichenau labor education camp and the associated

[00:01:11] Redesign of a contemporary memorial site. With this memorial site, of course, the

[00:01:18] big word remembrance culture and place of remembrance. For this reason

[00:01:24] I invited your expertise to simply talk more generally about the term and perhaps

[00:01:32] let's just start like this and see if you can give us a, let's say, university definition

[00:01:38] in the academic circles of remembrance culture.

[00:01:42] Ingrid: Yes, hello Tobias, thank you for the invitation and for your first question, it's a dangerous one,

[00:01:50] because if you ask about the university definition, there is of course a great risk that

[00:01:55] it gets complicated. And the word "culture of remembrance" has actually become so popular

[00:02:02] in historical studies, but also among everyone who somehow has something to do with institutionalized

[00:02:08] memory that you can already complain that it is inflationary and

[00:02:13] it appears in very different contexts and what exactly does it mean now?

[00:02:18] I'm picking up a bit on this advance or the advancedriof this term in, so to speak

[00:02:28] the everyday language of historical studies can be dated back to the 90s, to

[00:02:37] the beginning of the 90s perhaps, and there are various processes behind it.

[00:02:45] So I would just put it very crisply and simply, we all know,

[00:02:50] when we think about Austria and especially about contemporary history related to Austria, that

[00:02:56] there is a censorship, that is the Waldheim years. Waldheim was elected Federal President in 1986

[00:03:04] and we all know what happened in connection with this election campaign

[00:03:09] issues relevant to the politics of the past and history were on the table. There

[00:03:15] we also learned to recognize that up to that point, there was a chapter that was burdensome

[00:03:20] and burdensome, of our own recent history and tried todrängt,

[00:03:26] to forget it. And as is so often the case in history, as Marx also said, so

[00:03:33] history develops, that is, through thesis and antithesis, the pendulum

[00:03:38] swings once in one direction and then again in the other and so to the

[00:03:42] ForgettingdrÃand forgetting, then today the most intense remembrance and remembering and commemorating.

[00:03:48] And accompanying this, of course, there is also a focus here on different levels and in different ways

[00:03:55] Before and through talking about remembrance and its meaning in contemporary society

[00:04:01] and yes, and that brings us to the culture of remembrance. The culture of remembrance, if you want to

[00:04:07] in a general sense, that means the use of history in the present

[00:04:11] public for a specific purpose. And that purpose is to create collective

[00:04:19] identity with it or to secure it. And that is of course also something

[00:04:24] very contemporary. Tobias: A question about that. Especially in the German-speaking

[00:04:29] area, of course, remembrance culture or is very strongly connected with the Holocaust,

[00:04:35] with the Nazi era, although the term itself does not presuppose that. Is it

[00:04:41] it was only through the Waldheim Affair that the term became so strong in our country?

[00:04:48] emerged, so strongly linked to the Nazi era, or is it difficult

[00:04:53] to grasp at all? Ingrid: To be honest, I'm not sure about that. Of course

[00:04:58] the memory of National Socialism or of the Second World War in general

[00:05:05] received an enormous boost in the 1990s. That had to do with the fact that a generational change

[00:05:13] had already taken place before that. So the generation of veterans, the war veterans

[00:05:21] gradually retired and therefore lost influence, public influence

[00:05:29] lost. That's one storyline that triggered these dynamics. Another one that

[00:05:36] just as important, has to do with the fact that the Cold War came to an end in 1989/91.

[00:05:43] And before that, the Cold War, which ended very soon, an incredibly short time after the Second World War

[00:05:51] World War II and defined a completely new international situation, so to speak, [00:05:58

[00:05:58] led to the fact that, for reasons of expediency, the issue of the Second World War

[00:06:04] was somehow pushed aside. For example, they had to somehow bring the Federal Republic into the

[00:06:09] integrate it into the Western camp. And if you are constantly reminded that you are the Nazi successor country,

[00:06:16] then perhaps it's not necessarily good for the climate within the alliance. Or I mean,

[00:06:24] how are Germany and France supposed to get along with each other again if you're constantly

[00:06:29] reminded of what happened in the decades before, in other words the Franco-German relationship

[00:06:35] is a good example. It's not just about National Socialism and the Second

[00:06:39] World War II, but now we are together in an economic alliance, so the

[00:06:45] beginning European integration, the Marshall Plan, then the beginnings of the European Economic Community

[00:06:55] etc. and on the other side NATO. So in short, there were many good reasons why the

[00:07:01] issue was simply pushed aside. These considerations, which were necessary for decades

[00:07:06] were necessary for decades no longer existed after the end of the Cold War.

[00:07:13] On the one hand, the Iron Curtain fell. Many of those affected by the crimes against humanity of the

[00:07:20] National Socialism lived behind the Iron Curtain or the crimes

[00:07:25] happened there and now these memories were suddenly accessible in a different way

[00:07:31] accessible. So that was another very important reason why you were suddenly confronted with a

[00:07:40] new intensity towards this time and also the significance of what happened during this time,

[00:07:49] that happened before 1945, what it means for the present and what is derived from it,

[00:07:56] in terms of necessary actions. On the one hand, practically speaking, for the former Tatar societies

[00:08:03] the division of Europe and the world during the Cold War meant that, after all, with justified

[00:08:10] claims for compensation were not confronted. That, too, has gone beyond the Iron Curtain

[00:08:15] did not work across the Iron Curtain. And there was a catch-up process and yes, that also affected these

[00:08:23] societies or the governments were forced to deal with it. So it's

[00:08:29] one thing led to another. Tobias: And I think, playing right into that, there was also talk of

[00:08:35] Vranitzky. That was, I have to be careful not to say something wrong. But I think,

[00:08:40] we started in the mid-90s... Ingrid: 1991. Tobias: 1991... Ingrid: Yes, summer 91. Tobias: Where we then also for the first time the guilt or the

[00:08:50] Austria's perpetration of the crimes was declared for the first time. Before that there was always only

[00:08:55] only ever talked about the role of victim. Ingrid: Exactly. So Chancellor Franz Vranitzky apologizes in the context of

[00:09:02] a parliamentary speech, but it was not announced that he would address this topic.

[00:09:08] That was also surprising for the Austrian National Council at the time. But he comes up with

[00:09:13] this topic and formulated something like an admission of guilt. So a responsibility for

[00:09:20] complicity in the major crimes of National Socialism and he also apologizes.

[00:09:24] And that was a historical-political censure for Austria. So a central one

[00:09:32] stage in the official, i.e. also state-sponsored, turning away from the

[00:09:39] the lifelong lie of the Second Republic, namely the victim thesis. That you yourself were the first victim of the

[00:09:45] Nazi aggression and therefore cannot be held responsible for what happened afterwards

[00:09:52] can be held responsible. But this process shows two things very clearly, that this

[00:10:00] historical-political and thus also memory-cultural corrections did not simply fall from the

[00:10:06] fall from the sky, the result of a higher insight or morality or ethos, so to speak,

[00:10:16] but that they are always somehow embedded in political processes. And in this case,

[00:10:21] so in terms of domestic policy, there was a very clear hanger for Vranitzky and that was shortly before a

[00:10:28] saying of Jörg Haider, then party chairman of the FPÖ, who spoke of the proper employment policy

[00:10:42] of the National Socialists. There's no need to go into detail, but that is of course

[00:10:49] was a statement that could not be allowed to stand. And so that was the domestic political

[00:10:58] context. At the same time, in terms of foreign policy, you were under Druck at the time, because you had

[00:11:03] had applied to join Brussels Europe and the EC in 1989, and of course that was about

[00:11:14] also about what kind of adruck you leave behind or make with the negotiating partners

[00:11:20] and, of course, taking a clear position with regard to historical policy.

[00:11:29] That was also part of the entry ticket to Brussels Europe. And so this

[00:11:37] signal Vranitzky also wanted to send. So there was simply an international or

[00:11:44] foreign policy Druck that was at play here as an amplifier. Tobias: That means you could also say that,

[00:11:52] if we want to summarize this again very briefly, that there are internal insights,

[00:11:58] but there is also a very strong Druinfluence on our own culture of remembrance or do you see

[00:12:04] not see it that way? Ingrid: Well, in the case of Austria's handling of National Socialism, it was clearly the case,

[00:12:11] that Austria was able to duck away for so long had to do with Austria's specific situation

[00:12:19] after 1945. Austria was a small country, but it belonged to the Western camp. It

[00:12:28] somehow found it easy to somehow also position itself in the international political arena

[00:12:34] irrelevance to be able to afford these lifelong lies. And then over time, especially through a

[00:12:45] different situation, it was then necessary step by step to come up with something.

[00:12:51] Waldheim was also something or the attitude that Waldheim represented in the election campaign, yes,

[00:12:59] in relation to his own past as a Wehrmacht officer in the Balkans, which was so typical

[00:13:06] for this generation of Austrian participants in the war. Of course, that has something to say about his

[00:13:12] character, yes, this deflecting and mendacious behavior that he simply displayed

[00:13:19] has put on. So this obdurate lack of understanding. Tobias: And the stories with the he was never with the party,

[00:13:27] but his horse was, or these things, where there's this Waldheim horse, which one,

[00:13:32] I think you can still see in the House of History. Ingrid: It's no longer there

[00:13:35] in the House of Austrian History, but has moved to the Vienna Museum, that's another story.

[00:13:40] But yes, of course that has provoked a lot of controversy, yes, but this lack of insight,

[00:13:48] that Kurt Waldheim displayed and, after all, he was also a former

[00:13:55] UN Secretary General, who simply made sure that this was observed internationally

[00:14:00] was observed internationally and commented on internationally and then Waldheim also comes one year

[00:14:05] later, after he is elected, on the watch list, so he can no longer travel to the US.

[00:14:10] All this has simply forced the official Austria and the political parties in Austria

[00:14:17] forced them to take a stand. Of course, as I said, this generational change that

[00:14:24] was already noticeable in the 80s and the public too

[00:14:29] in Austria has become more critical. But, as I said, the older Druck always plays a role

[00:14:35] plays a role and what happens afterwards, for example that it then comes to the appointment

[00:14:42] a historical commission around the 00s, for example, where too little has been

[00:14:48] researched chapters of Austria's involvement in National Socialism, so with really

[00:14:56] a lot of money and a very large team. That, too, has to do with this

[00:15:06] consequence of the changed circumstances and the need to work with, for example

[00:15:15] these restitution claims that suddenly came up.

[00:15:20] So maybe we can all remember, maybe you can't, but I can still remember. So

[00:15:25] Suddenly Klimt or Schiele paintings that were lent abroad for exhibition,

[00:15:32] were no longer returned because it suddenly became clear that they were aryanized art

[00:15:42] art objects were involved. So various things were at play here and the result

[00:15:49] was a corresponding dynamic. Tobias: I can also imagine, because I just realized that during

[00:15:55] your explanations, it was also pretty much at the time when there was an exhibition

[00:16:01] about the members of the Wehrmacht, where a documentary film was then made

[00:16:08] was made of the, unfortunately I can't remember the name, where then really

[00:16:15] the exhibition was on its way and people went in and looked at the exhibition

[00:16:18] and then discussed it, some of them were still relatives, where it was then

[00:16:24] was about the clean image of the Wehrmacht, what they did under the pretext of

[00:16:30] were normal soldiers, were not involved in war crimes and so on, where there was a long

[00:16:35] time also with the white vest of the Wehrmacht and so on, which is completely absurd and

[00:16:41] then there are really sometimes heated discussions between former members of the

[00:16:46] Wehrmacht at these exhibitions. I think this documentation,

[00:16:51] because this one, what's it called, is definitely, I think, also on YouTube

[00:16:57] is also quite interesting to look up. Ingrid: The Wehrmacht exhibition, which was organized by Germany

[00:17:04] then also came to Austria, was certainly also an important step in the culture of remembrance

[00:17:13] step, a stage in terms of correcting our view of National Socialism and the Nazis

[00:17:23] Second World War. And the Wehrmacht exhibition,

[00:17:28] really made waves and once again it became clearer than ever that

[00:17:38] there is such a thing as collective memories and they are not always compatible with each other. So

[00:17:46] this generation of war veterans has created its own narrative. Like

[00:17:53] do we remember National Socialism? Yes, preferably in the form that we did in Russia

[00:18:00] defended the fatherland. So how is that supposed to work in a war of aggression against the Soviet Union?

[00:18:08] so far away from Austria, yes, that's not entirely logical and not entirely rational, but it worked

[00:18:16] worked. And part of this narrative was, of course, that you yourself also somehow

[00:18:24] suffered somehow. So you had to endure the hardships of war... Tobias: You also had to cope yourself, didn't you? Ingrid: Exactly,

[00:18:33] endure the many war invalids, the traumatized, the family, the people at home,

[00:18:40] yes, who suffered from the stress of the war. That was sort of the dominant

[00:18:46] narrative. And a later generation, who then also went to this Wehrmacht exhibition,

[00:18:55] no longer found it so convincing. And they were able to deal with what was shown there,

[00:19:00] that the Wehrmacht was indeed involved in war crimes. And where they

[00:19:05] perhaps didn't help directly, but in any case witnessed, yes, they could do with what

[00:19:11] do with it. She got involved. And when they were in the exhibition together,

[00:19:17] then that sometimes led to such heated discussions. But I mean, especially Waldheim,

[00:19:25] the Wehrmacht officer Waldheim, the war participant Waldheim and how he himself

[00:19:33] or the Wehrmacht exhibition and the controversies that happened there

[00:19:41] are quite typical of the fact that there is actually something like a generational memory

[00:19:46] and that there is not always compatibility between the generations. So,

[00:19:54] that can also happen with other topics that are perhaps less stressful now and less

[00:20:02] associated with necessary self-criticism. Tobias: Because you mentioned the generational change,

[00:20:11] is it also helpful from your point of view that, in the case of the NS period, a great many

[00:20:17] documents, records and even photographs are still available, which can be used in that sense

[00:20:23] sense, be it the critical examination, is that helpful or is it not absolutely

[00:20:32] necessary in order to then approach the topic of the culture of remembrance and perhaps also

[00:20:37] criticize or question earlier collective memory? Ingrid: What you're talking about,

[00:20:45] is of course also something that has to do with historical research. When new sources emerge,

[00:20:52] new evidence, so to speak, of Nazi crimes or of the involvement of certain groups of individual

[00:21:04] personalities etc., yes, that just leads to a necessary revision and what

[00:21:11] really surprising, even though we've been dealing with contemporary history for many decades now

[00:21:18] reappraisal of the Nazi era, something new keeps popping up, yes, and we then have to

[00:21:26] learn ourselves again and again, okay, there was a blind spot, on the one hand because we still have the material

[00:21:33] and on the other hand, because of course the present is also changing somehow and

[00:21:38] for a long time, certain groups of victims who were persecuted under National Socialism,

[00:21:47] simply received too little public recognition. This includes the group of Wehrmacht desserts,

[00:21:52] if we're back on the subject of the Veteran's Society of the Second Republic, the Wehrmacht desserts

[00:22:00] were for this narrative, we heroically defended the fatherland, of course very disturbing and

[00:22:08] That's why they weren't given the necessary recognition for the longest time. it was only in 2009,

[00:22:15] that this group was rehabilitated, other victim groups, homosexuals for example,

[00:22:22] were also ignored for a long time because they also lived through the longest period in the Second Republic

[00:22:27] were also criminalized, there are continuities between the time before National Socialism,

[00:22:34] for the Nazi era and afterwards, yes, and these blind spots, they crop up from time to time,

[00:22:41] because our present is also changing and these questions are then asked in the present

[00:22:46] and then there's also material, ideally or often, when you have a question,

[00:22:51] then you can also find the source material. That's how images of history change and that's also how they change

[00:23:02] the culture of remembrance. Tobias: The culture of remembrance is also very strongly linked to places of remembrance.

[00:23:08] Do you see places of remembrance as part of the culture of remembrance or should they be separated from each other...

[00:23:17] So, what do you mean by separate from each other? It's difficult, of course. But are they still there specifically?

[00:23:22] how they are to be interpreted or would you say that they are always linked to the culture of remembrance?

[00:23:28] Let's maybe take an example, I don't know.

[00:23:31] Ingrid: The Bergisel. Tobias: The Bergisel, for example [both laugh]. Of course, it's clearly connected to 1809. If it stands alone, maybe it's not,

[00:23:45] Is it already? It's difficult, I think.

[00:23:48] Ingrid: In any case, there is a conceptual proximity between the word "culture of remembrance" and the term "place of remembrance".

[00:23:57] Looking at it again from an academic perspective. Now I'll repeat myself again.

[00:24:07] By culture of remembrance we mean all activities and phenomena that somehow take place in the public sphere

[00:24:18] and the public can also be a partial public. But in any case, they relate to history for the purpose

[00:24:25] the creation of a collective identity. So it's always a kind of social self-insurance.

[00:24:33] So the self-insurance of a group, that's us. That's where we come from.

[00:24:39] But the message can also be, that's not us, yes. Tobias: Yes [both laugh]. Ingrid: But in any case, it's a necessary understanding of that,

[00:24:49] what you refer to as a collective and thus also guarantee your own cohesion.

[00:24:59] And groups want to be long-lasting, they want to endure. So there's a connection between your own past,

[00:25:08] their own present and their own future. And that's why you have to try to consolidate these memories

[00:25:16] and somehow organize it, institutionalize it. We set up memorials for this. We invent rituals for that.

[00:25:26] That's what the Bergisel stands for [both laugh]. And the Bergisel offers many points of connection.

[00:25:35] How one remembers the figure of Andreas Hofer in 1809. Much of this is, of course, highly contrived.

[00:25:45] A certain image is created. And with this image you create your own idea of Tyrolean history

[00:25:53] and therefore also of what the Tyroleans are like. And that brings us to a place of remembrance.

[00:26:05] A place of memory as a concept in what is called memory studies in history or cultural studies,

[00:26:16] is a concept that goes back to Pierre Nora. Pierre Nora was a French historian.

[00:26:22] And he invented this concept of the "lieu de mémoire" [French for: place of memory] and by that he meant central points of reference in French national history,

[00:26:38] that endow the collective of the French nation with an identity.

[00:26:45] In part, he imagined this in very concrete spatial terms, applied to Tyrol, the Bergisel, which is actually a place.

[00:26:56] But he was more open about it. They are crystallization points, they are central points of reference.

[00:27:06] And in the case of France, that can also be the Marseillaise, for example, the French national anthem.

[00:27:13] Or a ritual, a specific custom can also be something like a place of remembrance.

[00:27:21] So that's somehow more diverse to think of.

[00:27:26] A certain song can be a place of remembrance.

[00:27:30] A certain image that everyone knows, that has to do with history.

[00:27:35] Now I'm back to Austria. I'm jumping a bit associatively.

[00:27:38] Tobias: If I may jump in there, especially in Innsbruck it would of course be the picture of the Virgin Mary, which is depicted on all house walls, or on very many house walls, for example.

[00:27:48] Ingrid: That's not necessarily something historical.

[00:27:50] Tobias: That's not something historical.

[00:27:52] Ingrid: That's an interesting question. You could think about that in more detail.

[00:27:58] But the giant circular monument at Bergisel is of course a place of remembrance.

[00:28:05] That's exactly what Pierre Nora had in mind, or another image central to the Austrian identity of the Second Republic would of course be the photo of the signing of the State Treaty at the Belvedere.

[00:28:24] But places of remembrance, as Pierre Nora meant them, naturally have the aim of consolidating one's own identity.

[00:28:34] In this context, of course, events with such a positive connotation are more likely to die, even if they partly see the Bergisel battle, i.e. the fight.

[00:28:44] That's not something that's only positive per se, but you can still turn it into a positive story.

[00:28:51] And that's exactly what happened with Andreas Hofer, 1809 and all these things.

[00:28:56] We remember it as a glorious victory, but those who take a closer look at this era put it into perspective,

[00:29:05] just as people have now learned to view the personality and work of Andreas Hofer a little more critically.

[00:29:12] But the Bergisel is a wonderful example for Tyrol of how the use of history is put to use to create identity.

[00:29:27] Political rituals continue to take place at Bergisel, commemorations for Andreas Hofer.

[00:29:34] Yes, they take place there. That's where the provincial governors from both sides of the Brenner gather.

[00:29:42] And they remember it as something that is constitutive for the lasting common connection between the two parts of the country.

[00:29:59] And that also has something very contemporary as its goal. The aim is to create a common identity.

[00:30:08] [Drehgeräusch] Tobias: Let's perhaps take the leap away from Andreas Hofer and perhaps also your opinion or how you feel about the solution.

[00:30:23] As I said, at the time of our recording, the project for the new Reichenau labor education camp memorial site has not yet been completed.

[00:30:31] But what has been completed, and we both attended the opening, is the timing, i.e. the Innsbruck alternative to the stumbling stones.

[00:30:39] How do you see the implementation of such, in this case, very small places of remembrance that catch your eye when you walk through the city?

[00:30:52] Are you personally satisfied or enthusiastic about this solution, what has been done in Innsbruck?

[00:31:02] Or what is your opinion at this point? It might also be interesting to see.

[00:31:07] Ingrid: Now I'll ask you again about the place of remembrance. The way you've formulated your question, you can show very nicely,

[00:31:16] that place of remembrance has now also become a term that is used in different contexts.

[00:31:24] So, on the one hand, it still stands for Pierre Nora's concept, and place of remembrance is something,

[00:31:33] that has the quality for a group to pass on the shared identity derived from the past to subsequent generations.

[00:31:50] At the times we're talking about here, they're something completely new, we don't yet know whether they can develop this quality,

[00:32:00] whether they can create a sustainable identity for a group in the long term.

[00:32:10] That doesn't have to be for the whole of Innsbruck, but it does have to be for a significant part of it, which is then somehow reflected politically in the local council, etc., etc.

[00:32:21] Tobias: Or in the population. Ingrid: Where there are also groups in the population who say, yes, someone lived in our street who was a victim of National Socialism, a victim of Nazi persecution policies

[00:32:37] and we would like to remember this person or revive their memory.

[00:32:43] And this person is part of our former neighborhood, yes, so we're back with this group.

[00:32:52] And we as the current neighborhood have an interest in not forgetting those who lived here back then.

[00:32:59] If that works, then the points in time will also become places of remembrance in the sense of Pierre Nora, yes.

[00:33:07] I think the nice thing about the points in time is that they have the quality of emerging from civil society.

[00:33:20] So groups from the population can get in touch with you at the city archive and apply.

[00:33:28] A date is to be set here and we as a group will then somehow take care of this date.

[00:33:43] And these are small interventions. They are very individual.

[00:33:49] They relate to one person or perhaps a family.

[00:33:54] They don't take up much space. They are primarily visible to those who live in the vicinity of that moment.

[00:34:05] But of course they're always there somehow in everyday life. You just have to see them.

[00:34:12] So these small, decentralized forms of remembrance are, I believe, a very important and also worthy addition to a cautionary remembrance and commemoration of the National Socialist era.

[00:34:33] [Outro music]

[00:34:48] Tobias: Archivwürrdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the fifth episode of our dritten season of Archivwörtig,

[00:00:05] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive. For today's episode we go to the

[00:00:11] neighboring Free State of Bavaria, more precisely to Dachau. At the Dachau concentration camp memorial site

[00:00:19] I met with the director Gabriele Hammermann for a chat. At the beginning we talk

[00:00:25] about her connections to Innsbruck and the decision to build a new

[00:00:30] memorial site in the Reichenau. We then look at various aspects of the concentration camp memorial site

[00:00:36] Dachau and try to identify parallels to the Reichenau labor education camp.

[00:00:42] [Intor-Musik] Tobias: Dear Gabriele, thank you for the invitation, first of all to the Dachau concentration camp memorial.

[00:01:04] It's also my first visit today. We are recording here and at your place, as you have a connection to the Reichenau labor education camp

[00:01:17] or you are a member of the expert commission. Perhaps it would also be nice if you could tell us

[00:01:26] perhaps briefly explain how this participation in the Historical Commission came about,

[00:01:31] expert commission came about. Gabriele: Yes, I received the invitation from Lukas Morscher,

[00:01:41] the head of the city archives and Irene Heisz and I was very, very pleased because there were just so many

[00:01:49] affected many areas that are now relevant in the former Reichenau labor education camp

[00:01:57] which play a central role for us here at the memorial and which are also relevant in my

[00:02:04] research on forced labor, but also on the concentration camp system.

[00:02:12] And I was very pleased with the many points of contact and also really appreciated the great and

[00:02:22] collegial cooperation in this commission. I think that has also led to the fact that we

[00:02:29] really got to the goal in a very short time and in big steps, so to speak.

[00:02:37] I often find that these discussion processes take considerably longer.

[00:02:47] And in that respect, that's my connection to Innsbruck, a city that I also really love

[00:02:55] beautiful. Tobias: I was just about to say that there have already been visits to Innsbruck, of course

[00:03:00] and vice versa, there was also an excursion by the commission to Dachau,

[00:03:05] if I'm informed correctly. Gabriele: Yes, a few weeks ago they were all here and looked at the

[00:03:12] concentration camp memorial site, but also the outdoor sites here near the memorial site,

[00:03:19] For example, there was a former firing range where over 4,000 Soviet soldiers were buried

[00:03:28] prisoners of war were executed, which we converted into a memorial site in 2014

[00:03:36] with an outdoor exhibition and a place of names. And that was because it was the theme

[00:03:42] outdoor exhibition was also relevant for many of the delegation.

[00:03:48] Tobias: May I perhaps also ask for your thoughts on the or your attitude or opinion on the

[00:03:56] plan for a new memorial site or a contemporary place of remembrance

[00:04:03] at the site of the former labor education camp?

[00:04:08] Gabriele: Yes, I believe that this camp and the aftermath of the camp for the city

[00:04:14] Innsbruck are really of great importance. That essentially goes from 1941 to 1945

[00:04:24] about the history of the Reichenau labor education camp. We really have a lot of

[00:04:30] exciting political discussions, including discussions about the extent to which, for example

[00:04:37] companies came to terms with National Socialism or the forced laborers

[00:04:48] exploited for their production. This is a very, very central issue because the labor education camp

[00:04:56] Reichenau was run by the Gestapo and the companies had a kind of right of suggestion

[00:05:03] and I find that very, very central, how many companies were ultimately involved in this system

[00:05:11] were involved. And there were also uses as prisoner-of-war camps and as Reichspost camps

[00:05:19] and the railroad. And here, too, we're not just at the site in Reichenau, but in the surrounding area

[00:05:27] of the city of Innsbruck with at least 40 branch camps and that shows how close, so to speak, forced labor

[00:05:37] was interwoven with National Socialism, but also with German society, especially during the war

[00:05:44] was. Tobias: The former Dachau concentration camp and the Reichenau labor education camp

[00:05:49] cannot be compared one to one. But I would say that there are parallels that apply to both

[00:05:55] camps, of course not in terms of size and so on, and also in terms of use. So there are

[00:06:01] a lot of differences, of course, but also because I was informed in advance,

[00:06:07] also in terms of the direct subsequent use of the warehouse. Because we have

[00:06:12] in Reichenau or the former camps in Reichenau directly after the war

[00:06:20] a reception camp for DPs, i.e. "displaced persons" [person not living in this place], then of course also for the

[00:06:27] Nazi functionaries, i.e. as a camp, a prison camp so to speak, whereby then the further

[00:06:34] subsequent use in Innsbruck lasted much longer than now in Dachau, you can perhaps

[00:06:40] say something about how you see the comparison or parallels with the Reichenau camp

[00:06:47] and the Dachau camp. Gabriele: The thing is, if we go back to the history between 1941 and 1945

[00:06:55] that it was also a transit camp, the Reichenau or a transit camp for Jews

[00:07:03] Jews to the Mauthausen concentration camp and also to Auschwitz and that is one aspect,

[00:07:11] that is only mentioned in the history of the Dachau concentration camp at the end and only in the context of the

[00:07:18] outer camps. There were also, there were large transports from the satellite camps, above all

[00:07:26] things to the so-called bunker projects, which are projects that have been planned

[00:07:36] to relocate the production of airplanes underground. There were areas in Dachau drei,

[00:07:45] that is the former BMW external warehouse in Allach. There was also a bunker construction project there

[00:07:53] in Mühldorf in the complex and in Kaufering. Mostly Jewish prisoners worked there

[00:08:01] and there were also these transports, especially of sick and emaciated people,

[00:08:07] who could not be squeezed any further in the context of this labor process, who were then just

[00:08:14] also transferred to Auschwitz. Reichenau was also planned in the context of a reception camp for

[00:08:25] Italian workers who had fled. There is also a context, so to speak, with my research.

[00:08:33] I worked on the Italian military internees and, of course, also dealt with the

[00:08:40] topic of forced labor from Italy from 1938, 1939. Exactly, that was also an issue and

[00:08:49] then of course we can now also draw a comparison with the topic of the subsequent use of the

[00:08:57] Dachau concentration camp, which was initially run as a "displayed persons camp" for a few months

[00:09:05] for a few months. From August 1945 until drei years later, for example, as an internment camp for National Socialists

[00:09:15] and then as a refugee camp, primarily for Germans who had fled from the former

[00:09:24] East Germany, who then came here to Dachau and had no, no living space and

[00:09:34] also lived in precarious conditions. Also on the outskirts of the city, similar to Reichenau

[00:09:42] and had difficulties establishing themselves in society, partly because there was a large

[00:09:50] rejection of the immigrants, so to speak. Tobias: Then that's what work is for

[00:09:59] Reichenau education camp, that's when everything was flattened, to put it casually,

[00:10:05] everything was demolished. Fortunately, the camp here in Dachau did not suffer the same fate

[00:10:12] did not happen. It was converted into a memorial site relatively early on, you could say

[00:10:21] has been converted. Can we perhaps go into a little more detail about how the memorial came about?

[00:10:27] Gabriele: This process was a long one. in 1955, the former inmates of the concentration camp

[00:10:34] Dachau came together on an international level to form the International Dachau Committee

[00:10:42] and it was decided that this place, which from the point of view of the former prisoners was completely

[00:10:50] has been used inappropriately. We can go into that in a moment, turn this place into a

[00:10:57] memorial site. But this process took a long time, ten years until 1965 in May

[00:11:06] a memorial could be erected and it actually took an international publicity

[00:11:13] and the moral corrective, the moral significance of the former prisoners of the

[00:11:22] Dachau concentration camp, that a memorial site was created here at this location. In the

[00:11:30] immediate post-war period, for example, there was a suggestion from the local Landrat that the former

[00:11:37] crematorium and that was the only memorial site here on the site of the former

[00:11:44] prisoners' camp, that this crematorium should be demolished and only through international

[00:11:53] initiatives this was prevented. So you can see from that that German society has this

[00:12:01] normalize this place, wanted to overwrite it, wanted to repurpose it, so that the memory of what

[00:12:09] what happened here is completely lost. Tobias: Also a process that in Austria

[00:12:14] clearly interwoven, of course with a different premise than this victim thesis, which is always very

[00:12:21] was always held in advance in order to let this dark time rest for the time being and

[00:12:30] then, of course, in Austria it was only much later that it was dealt with, as it was in Germany,

[00:12:34] where, I would say, it started 20 years earlier, the debate.

[00:12:41] I don't know whether you can confirm that or not, it's always very generalized,

[00:12:46] of coursedrückt but... Gabriele: I think quite a lot has also contributed to the fact that there is a

[00:12:52] judicial punishment of the crimes relatively soon after the end of the war, by the Americans on the

[00:12:59] one side, through the Nuremberg Trial, but I referred to the internment camp,

[00:13:05] the drei years after the end of the war and that is in the context of the so-called Dachau trials

[00:13:13] was also established here. The criminals who were here were practically combed through

[00:13:21] and there were major investigations, very numerous investigations and also trials

[00:13:28] against the SS in the Dachau concentration camp, that was the so-called "parent case" and then also

[00:13:37] against the SS in Mauthausen, Flossenbürg in Buchenwald and in Mittelbau-Dora. So you see

[00:13:47] a very, very important aspect of the judicial punishment of the immediate post-war period and as a result

[00:13:56] of course many of the population learned about the crimes that took place here on the ground

[00:14:02] and they could no longer simply say there was nothing, we knew nothing about it,

[00:14:09] because that was actually a very important social event. Tobias: And I have

[00:14:16] so far only, what do you mean only, but I have visited the memorial site in Mauthausen twice,

[00:14:23] once also the Hartheim memorial, Hartheim Castle and also in Mauthausen, it

[00:14:30] is also made very clear during a guided tour, for example in Mauthausen, up there is

[00:14:34] was the football pitch and the SS guards also played a match there

[00:14:39] played a match against the local football club downstairs, so that's where it was, and when you're up there

[00:14:45] and see how close it is, it's actually very frightening that there are really

[00:14:49] many from or so many say, you didn't know, partly yes, but for the most part it can actually be

[00:14:57] not like that. Gabriele: It's unthinkable, because especially towards the end of the war, and we have already in the area of

[00:15:04] of Reichenau, how big this network of persecution was, there were, we have

[00:15:11] just talked about the forced labor camps, about labor education camps that covered the entire area

[00:15:19] existed in Germany or existed in the German Reich, and the local population has

[00:15:26] also noticed, of course, when the marches went through the towns in the concentration camps

[00:15:31] from the train station to the camp, and especially towards the end of the war there were death marches,

[00:15:42] there was practically this system of satellite camps, concentration camps, the Dachau camp

[00:15:48] has 140 satellite camps in the area of Upper Bavaria above all, but also towards Austria and that is

[00:15:57] of course a topic of constant encounters with the crimes. Tobias: The memorial here in Dachau

[00:16:07] has existed for a very long time now, I would say that the dissemination of knowledge has developed over time

[00:16:13] running time has also changed a lot. The main exhibition has been since 2002/2003, I think,

[00:16:23] I think it's been drin since 2003. We see or...

[00:16:27] Perhaps I can ask you in general about knowledge transfer here in Dachau.

[00:16:33] How do you see the development of the mediation concept or the place of mediation here in Dachau?

[00:16:42] Gabriele: In the beginning there were also former prisoners who were also in the former prisoner camp here,

[00:16:50] That's the part of the memorial site where they gave guided tours, tours with their history,

[00:16:57] Often they were political prisoners, often from the communist resistance, so many

[00:17:05] had already been imprisoned in 1933 and spoke about their many years of experience,

[00:17:15] including the persecution of their families and that was a very, very significant and important time,

[00:17:22] The memorial department, the education department, was only established at the turn of the millennium.

[00:17:32] For many years there were practically tours here on site via seconded teachers and there were also

[00:17:43] various very committed history societies were formed in the area, which filled this vacuum, so to speak, of support

[00:17:54] in the concentration camp memorial site. It was the case for a long time that the state, not so much

[00:18:05] took care of this issue, it only increasingly became an issue in the 80s,

[00:18:13] but actually often based on the commitment of civil society. And as I said,

[00:18:20] an education department from the turn of the millennium, we also tried, of course,

[00:18:27] practically integrate this fund, so to speak, of this civil society initiative

[00:18:36] with the tour guides that we have here on the site. There are now 70 of them and there are actually

[00:18:46] a six-month training course that is very popular, so to speak. We're also on it now,

[00:18:53] continuously retraining speakers and it is important to us that these

[00:19:04] tour guides are also part of the memorial, so they have also become permanent employees of the memorial.

[00:19:13] So it's a long process, you can see that, and if you focus on the content again,

[00:19:21] then since the Beutelsbach Consensus in the memorials, it has been customary not to deal with moral

[00:19:32] over-forming, but rather to promote research-based, open learning here in this place..., yes

[00:19:39] to encourage that, that is very, very important. We want to encourage a critical examination of the role

[00:19:50] also of perpetration, so and society and of course a strong biographical work about the

[00:20:00] former prisoners here, so it's practical that more and more new areas are now also being integrated into our work

[00:20:11] resonates, so to speak. However, we realize that the preparation and follow-up takes much more time,

[00:20:22] than in earlier years, when perhaps more attention was paid to this in school lessons,

[00:20:30] but where there wasn't such a large generational gap. So it's actually very necessary,

[00:20:41] reflection and that's why we're currently rebuilding our education center with

[00:20:51] six new seminar rooms, which will be state of the art in terms of technology and will be geared towards this

[00:21:00] we are very much looking forward to this redesign work. There is always the wish that the memorials

[00:21:09] position themselves on the current political situation, also in their educational work and there

[00:21:21] but we think that it's very, very important to talk about the engagement with the place, so to speak

[00:21:28] questions and not to actively initiate this, but to get the students to ask questions

[00:21:36] to come to conclusions that they have drawn from the tour. You could put it like this.

[00:21:43] Of course, it's also important that the diversity of the visitors has changed a lot

[00:21:52] has changed. We are in an immigration society, in a migration society and that needs

[00:21:58] of course, we also need updated educational programs and here, too, the topic of preparation, follow-up

[00:22:07] is very central. And that brings us to the topic of graphic novels, for example. We are currently

[00:22:16] in the process of establishing a graphic novel that is practically about the posting process and

[00:22:25] this short period of time, how people here went from being an individual to a number. And that's what a

[00:22:35] former prisoner Edgar Kupfer-Koberwitz described this in a really incredibly intense way

[00:22:42] and based on his description we created a graphic novel with an office, a film

[00:22:51] which will now be presented soon and where we believe that there simply needs to be another

[00:22:59] a completely different approach. That was the starting point, so we started with the topic of comics

[00:23:07] for example, or graphic novels, through intensive contact with our young

[00:23:15] employees. That is, of course, we have many from the FSJ or in earlier years were

[00:23:23] there were also so-called memorial servants. That was an initiative from Austria. Tobias: I should perhaps briefly say that this is a voluntary

[00:23:30] social year. So in Germany, in Austria, it would be similar to the

[00:23:35] the community service, so to speak, just so that we capture our listeners, so to speak. Gabriele: And we have in the

[00:23:45] contacts with our young employees, we realized what we might be able to develop anew and

[00:23:52] we're very happy about that now. That was an exciting, intensive process and that we can now present it.

[00:24:02] Tobias: Very nice. There is also an archive and a library at the memorial site

[00:24:12] or it's part of the memorial site, an archive and a library. Gabriele: And a large collection. Tobias: And a

[00:24:17] large collection just now. Is that from your point of view, so on the one hand I would like to ask how the

[00:24:23] interaction between the individual, I would now call it departments and whether you see that as a big

[00:24:30] bonus and where there are perhaps difficulties in reconciling the whole thing.

[00:24:36] Gabriele: Well, we sit very closely together here. So the different departments are not in

[00:24:44] different buildings or anything like that, but we've done it deliberately. We're sitting here in the east wing of the

[00:24:51] former commercial building, in the middle of the former site of the former prison camp,

[00:25:00] which is also a special place to work, but only for our listeners: where are we sitting here?

[00:25:13] And as I said, we did that quite deliberately. We have also designed this area

[00:25:20] in consultation with the Office for the Preservation of Historical Monuments, so that the historical structure of this

[00:25:26] building is also preserved and in the course of this we also have the archive, library,

[00:25:32] collection reorganized. That was ten years ago now and we have very, very close contact

[00:25:40] with the survivors and the descendants. That means our collection has grown enormously in the meantime

[00:25:47] grown enormously. There were archaeological excavations in the outdoor camp in Allach that I just mentioned. There are

[00:25:56] thousand objects came to the concentration camp memorial site and a whole new exciting field has opened up.

[00:26:03] We offered an exhibition on this and are now also planning the redesign of the historical

[00:26:12] buildings to the memorial site. One of these is the former transformer house,

[00:26:18] which was responsible for the electricity in the camp, i.e. the camp fence, loudspeakers and so on. Tobias: Headlights.

[00:26:24] Gabriele: A lot of elements of terror. This will be the place where the collection of the memorial site will be housed in the future

[00:26:31] and we are also in the process of redesigning the archive and library

[00:26:40] to significantly expand the area. The collaboration is really exciting because the education department

[00:26:48] is located in the immediate vicinity. The scientific department, that's the second branch, so to speak,

[00:26:56] is also close by, so that exhibitions can be planned in practice, but also

[00:27:04] media apps, for example, which we offer here on the subject of art in the concentration camp. So that

[00:27:12] it's very, very important to have short distances. The difficulties that you mentioned

[00:27:19] I think that there are often difficulties from the outside, because, for example, we consider

[00:27:27] we ask ourselves, what do we do today? You have a plan and the plan can actually be implemented after

[00:27:33] few minutes [smiles] because something happens. For example, which makes us very happy, a lot of

[00:27:41] relatives come to the archive to do research. They are here as part of a visit and

[00:27:51] of course we take the time to do this, because this is also a very central upheaval that we are

[00:27:57] right now and contact with the descendants is also very, very important for us. Tobias: Because they are

[00:28:03] just mentioned contact with the descendants, I think that's also very exciting

[00:28:09] and interesting, is there really something new for you in this research?

[00:28:14] new things come to light, because maybe they are still, be it souvenirs, maybe from

[00:28:22] survivors, this is also a point of contact, where an open

[00:28:30] channel of communication then arises beyond the visit and what is there so a bit

[00:28:38] for examples? Gabriele: We have several event formats. One is called Remembrance and Family Memory

[00:28:45] and it's practically about what the concentration camp imprisonment has done to the

[00:28:53] families has done. Those are always very, very moving conversations. We have a second

[00:29:01] format, which is called a multi-generational conversation. We don't just try to get the children involved,

[00:29:09] but also grandchildren, some great-grandchildren here in Dachau and it's very interesting,

[00:29:16] because the different generations each deal with the topic differently within the family

[00:29:23] deal with the topic. It is often the case that the children often knew nothing about the crime here at

[00:29:31] the place, what happened to their fathers and there was a greater openness on the part of the former prisoners

[00:29:39] to talk to their grandchildren or great-grandchildren, who in turn have completely different processing mechanisms

[00:29:47] have completely different ones. We often actually have to deal with art, with media art, with different aspects of art

[00:29:57] aspects of art that have to do with the detention of the relative. Tobias: Are there also sometimes insights

[00:30:09] also the visitor, if the person or the ancestor died here or because

[00:30:18] he was deported from here, that the visitors then come to this conclusion,

[00:30:23] okay, my relative was detained here and they didn't know exactly beforehand

[00:30:29] known beforehand. It's happened quite often. Gabriele: That's what I just reported, where we

[00:30:36] take our time, of course, because it's a very emotional process. When we are here in the archive

[00:30:43] our database, which contains over 200,000 records of former prisoners, so many were in the period

[00:30:51] between 1933 and 1945 here in Dachau, when we find out that the grandfather, the uncle, the father was here,

[00:30:59] was here in Dachau. There were also several very moving invitations from descendants, who were about

[00:31:11] 4,000 Soviet prisoners of war who were murdered in Hebertshausen near Dachau

[00:31:18] by the Dachau SS. And it really was like that, these descendants of the victims knew nothing

[00:31:28] and there are some kind of internet forums where they searched and never stopped searching.

[00:31:36] And our research, we published it in newspapers, so to speak, but also in these

[00:31:44] forums in the former Soviet Union, and because of that, people got in touch with us, who have

[00:31:52] showed us their photo albums and we have corresponding biographies with the photo albums,

[00:31:59] so we were able to show them the history of the people who had been murdered and these were again, so there were

[00:32:06] really no idea where the people remained, where the Soviet prisoners of war

[00:32:11] remained and to come to the place with the group, I think we were 20 people,

[00:32:19] 20 delegations of 20 descendants, that was one of the most moving experiences I had here in this place. [Outro music]

[00:32:47] Tobias: Archivwürrdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Tobias: Hello and welcome to the sixth episode of our dritten season of Archivwörtig,

[00:00:05] the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archive.

[00:00:08] In this episode, we look at the role of urban politics with regard to the culture of remembrance.

[00:00:14] I had the pleasure of welcoming the outgoing City Councillor for Culture Uschi Schwarzl and the outgoing Chair of the Culture Committee Irene Heisz.

[00:00:23] We use the example of the points in time to discuss how commemorative projects are implemented

[00:00:28] and also look to the future towards the end.

[00:00:31] [Intro music] Tobias: Firstly, thank you both very much for finding the time to come and join me for the drith season of our podcast Archivwündig.

[00:00:56] We have the Reichenau labor education camp and the new memorial site of the Reichenau labor education camp as a major overarching topic.

[00:01:05] We then circle around or we swing a bit beyond the topic in the relay

[00:01:11] And of course, to take up a topic like this and the culture of remembrance, places of remembrance, you need a political level,

[00:01:19] it needs political will, it needs political support.

[00:01:22] And that's where I have the advantage with you two, that on the one hand I have the city councillor responsible for culture

[00:01:28] and on the other hand Irene, i.e. Uschi as the councillor responsible for culture and Irene as the chair of the culture committee.

[00:01:36] And, as I said, we are talking about the culture of remembrance as a task of urban politics.

[00:01:44] Perhaps the question to both of you first, where do you see the role of politics in relation to the culture of remembrance?

[00:01:53] Where should it have an impact, where must it have an impact, perhaps also where there are limits, where perhaps politics should take a step back?

[00:02:02] Maybe I'll start with you, Uschi, when I look at you.

[00:02:07] Uschi: Yes, first of all, thank you very much for the invitation.

[00:02:10] It's very exciting for both of us, I think.

[00:02:13] I believe that the culture of remembrance is one of the main tasks of urban cultural policy.

[00:02:23] Not just to create memorials or hold obligatory commemorations on certain days of remembrance,

[00:02:32] but with a very specific content and this content is on the one hand to see where gaps in research can be supported,

[00:02:44] to close these research gaps, these research gaps then also, or the results of this research,

[00:02:53] then to make them accessible to a broad public and this accessibility must pick people up.

[00:03:00] That means, on the one hand, we have to make sure that we investigate the victims and the perpetrators and the places and make them visible

[00:03:10] and we have to make sure that we convey the knowledge, the research, in such a way that it is also embedded in current situations,

[00:03:22] it has to be transformed into the present, so to speak, because I believe

[00:03:26] that historical knowledge in connection with current developments is very important, also for the future of a society.

[00:03:35] Tobias: Same question for you, Irene. Where do you see the role of the city or urban policy in relation to remembrance policy and places of remembrance?

[00:03:46] Irene: Following on from what the councillor said,

[00:03:51] of course I can absolutely subscribe to all of that, there are several problems in the so-called culture of remembrance

[00:04:01] Starting with research gaps, as Uschi has just said. The other thing is contemporary witnesses,

[00:04:09] people who, when we talk about the Dritten Reich, experienced it all themselves and can talk about it themselves,

[00:04:15] there are hardly any left and fewer and fewer every day, so to speak, because they are naturally now at an age

[00:04:24] where their lifespan is manageable. And eyewitness accounts are a verydrucksful possibility,

[00:04:33] to think about a certain time and certain events. Of course, there are now many audio documents,

[00:04:40] interview recordings and so on, but it's different when I go to drÃand listen to something,

[00:04:45] than when I sit opposite a person and can look them in the eye and they tell me what they experienced back then,

[00:04:50] suffered or even committed. The other story is that we fortunately live in a colorful society today,

[00:05:00] in which people from different cultures come together and with different cultural backgrounds,

[00:05:05] also cultural and historical backgrounds. And of course there are also many people drunter,

[00:05:11] for whom the Nazi era, the Dritte Reich, the Second World War, was not a form of incision, of censorship,

[00:05:20] of a dark cloud, as is rightly self-evident for us, in Germany, in Austria,

[00:05:26] in Central Europe, in the entire European region. That means people from other cultures,

[00:05:32] who may have heard about it at school or in some other way, but for whom it is not this very personal

[00:05:41] burden responsibility, whatever you want to call it, I think you have to give them, if they also live with us

[00:05:49] and are part of our society, try to convey why this time is so extremely important for us.

[00:05:57] And I always say now, as an example of the peoples... so from a different perspective, the genocide of the Armenians,

[00:06:04] we know about it because we learned about it in school or whatever,

[00:06:10] this great historical and traumatic event that still overshadows so much today,

[00:06:17] by its very nature it is not for us Central Europeans.

[00:06:22] Tobias: At the time of the recording, the tender or the creation of the possible new memorial site was underway

[00:06:30] on the site of the former Reichnau labor education camp.

[00:06:35] We were also present this year, where we all drei were also present, at the opening of the time points.

[00:06:41] So we attended the Innsbruck alternative of the Stolpersteine, which was also a very nice event,

[00:06:48] which again shows how important it is to take up topics, to process them and not to talk about, how shall we put it?

[00:06:56] stumble or stumble into it and then create something that is quite fast,

[00:07:03] or on Druck from the outside, what is created.

[00:07:07] And because I have you here, it might not be entirely unwise,

[00:07:12] perhaps a little bit of the political process based on the points in time.

[00:07:18] But let's start like this, if it's planned now, be it Reichenau, be it the points in time,

[00:07:26] be it another memorial, which can happen or be initiated in the future.

[00:07:32] How do you start, how do you get the ball rolling, so to speak, so that politics is also involved?

[00:07:40] Uschi: Well, first of all, the office of councillor and the work of the culture committee are very closely interlinked,

[00:07:50] because the city law of the provincial capital of Innsbruck defines our constitution exactly,

[00:07:56] how the procedures have to be in order to reach a decision.

[00:08:00] And the issue of timing is perhaps a very good one, because it depends on the decision-making situation, so to speak

[00:08:07] and in terms of the implementation situation, it's already a finished project.

[00:08:12] It will never be finished because the citizens are also in demand,

[00:08:17] to pick up on the moments and initiate them themselves, but in terms of political decisions, it's finished.

[00:08:24] And that means in concrete terms, there was a push by some citizens in Innsbruck,

[00:08:32] a very intense demand for so-called stumbling blocks.

[00:08:37] And of course, this topic also reached us in the Culture Committee.

[00:08:42] And we didn't immediately say yes, a good idea, or reject it outright,

[00:08:49] but what we are doing is getting expertise on this issue from historians on the one hand

[00:08:59] and on the other hand from the Jewish community.

[00:09:03] And it turned out in the course of our discussions and after obtaining the expert opinions,

[00:09:09] that we no longer see the model of the stumbling blocks as appropriate.

[00:09:14] Above all, we have always had the uneasy feeling that it is actually not appropriate,

[00:09:20] when you stumble over the victims drÃor climb onto these memorial stones draso to speak.

[00:09:29] And then we decided in the culture committee that we would set up a working group like this

[00:09:34] and actually held a small competition or a call for tenders,

[00:09:39] where we were accompanied by Weissraum [Designforum Tirol for contemporary visual communication and design], who are now also accompanying us on the issue of Reichenau

[00:09:46] and have chosen the present, well-known model from it

[00:09:53] and the steps, so to speak, and Irene please correct me, intervene,

[00:09:58] if I don't remember everything exactly now,

[00:10:01] because I have so many projects in many areas that things often get mixed up,

[00:10:07] but in any case, the culture committee selected what was known from the proposals submitted, so to speak.

[00:10:15] And then, since a city committee is only an advisory body,

[00:10:21] Did I say that wrong?

[00:10:23] Ah, Irene, you say it.

[00:10:25] Irene: The basic idea was, which we have also just discussed with experts,

[00:10:32] personalized individual memorial and remembrance signs

[00:10:39] to victims of National Socialism

[00:10:42] and, if possible, close to or preferably at their last voluntarily chosen place of residence in Innsbruck.

[00:10:50] In other words, if someone lived in the, I say on purpose now, what fantasy name at Erdäpfelstraße 12,

[00:10:59] before he was deported to a concentration camp, for example, and so on,

[00:11:04] should have a personal memorial and remembrance sign either on the house, if possible, or if possible nearby

[00:11:11] be attached to this person.

[00:11:15] It is true that we have spoken out against stumbling blocks.

[00:11:19] Personally, my biggest objection to this is actually the names of the victims

[00:11:25] and thus trampling the victims underfoot, that doesn't seem right to me.

[00:11:30] Then, of course, we discussed this again and again with the Culture Committee

[00:11:37] and then announced a competition and it wasn't the culture committee that chose the result,

[00:11:43] but a jury of experts, of which I was one of the members,

[00:11:47] but historians, historians from the graphic arts sector and so on,

[00:11:54] simply experts from every conceivable sector involved,

[00:12:00] right up to a colleague from the IKB, because it's a good place,

[00:12:11] to put up what we now know is a time is masts.

[00:12:17] And how that works technically, you wouldn't think how difficult it can be [laughs briefly].

[00:12:21] I've learned an incredible amount in the course of this competition and this whole process.

[00:12:26] You need experts to tell you this is possible, this is not possible.

[00:12:30] You have to bend this sleeve, you can attach it this way or that way or not.

[00:12:34] There is an incredible amount of expertise from many different areas drin,

[00:12:38] not only at the obvious historical level, but also down to the technical details.

[00:12:47] What I think is also very important is that we, as those with political responsibility for a certain area,

[00:13:00] in our case, culture, do not believe that we have eaten wisdom with a spoon.

[00:13:05] Of course, there are experts in the city for all areas,

[00:13:11] Thank goodness we are well equipped, also thanks to the fact that we are a university city,

[00:13:17] that we have a, now I have to be a little bit slimy, a super-functioning, well-positioned city archive,

[00:13:25] with great colleagues who are always helpful and say, yes, we have something here,

[00:13:30] or look, you could do that and so on.

[00:13:32] Well, I'm sucking up a bit, but it's ...

[00:13:35] Tobias: On behalf of the city archive, I'm happy to accept that.

[00:13:37] Irene: It's simply the truth.

[00:13:39] Slime is easy when you tell the truth.

[00:13:41] Uschi: Maybe just a quick addendum.

[00:13:43] It was also, for example, just so you can see the dimension, the traffic law was included,

[00:13:48] because, so to speak, signs that are placed on the road must of course not impair the safety of traffic.

[00:13:56] And the road manager from the civil engineering department was also there, because it's not just time markers that are placed on poles,

[00:14:04] but also, where possible and otherwise not possible, on pillars that have to be anchored in the road.

[00:14:10] So, I found it very nice that the project, that the culture of remembrance, so to speak, has also seeped into authorities and technical offices.

[00:14:20] And I think that was also an enrichment for these people.

[00:14:23] Tobias: And I think at this point you could perhaps also thank IKB, who also took care of the maintenance and the ...

[00:14:30] So, as far as I know, even if they are now cleaning and making sure, so to speak, that if there are errors, errors,

[00:14:37] or if something is not right, then you also report it.

[00:14:40] Which is also very, very important, because just because it's hanging in the dran case, it still has to be maintained and cleaned if necessary or something else.

[00:14:50] Let's stay with the dates for a moment, the project has been finalized, so to speak, or at least selected.

[00:14:56] So, in the jury by this jury?

[00:15:00] Irene: Exactly, then it goes to a cultural committee, which is presented there once, because the specialist committees, i.e. the municipal council, the 40-member, elected

[00:15:08] municipal council with various parties and groups, as the population elected us in 2018 in the last election

[00:15:16] put together. So we are responsible for six years for more or less

[00:15:21] everything that happens in the city and that falls within the city's legal area of responsibility

[00:15:28] Innsbruck and the municipal council. Forms specialist committees, in our case culture,

[00:15:34] but of course there are also specialist committees for all other areas, from finance to sport to

[00:15:41] construction to social affairs etc. etc. Everything that the municipal council then has to decide on. The specialist committees

[00:15:50] are, as they are called, active in a preliminary advisory capacity for the municipal council, or under

[00:15:56] circumstances also for the city senate. That's, you can't say government, I've learned,

[00:16:01] because the city of Innsbruck doesn't have a government in that sense, the city of Innsbruck has a

[00:16:05] mayor, a female mayor and then members of the city senate, i.e. city councillors

[00:16:10] Councillors, such as Uschi Schwarzl, who is the city councillor responsible for, among other things

[00:16:15] culture and many other departments. Culture committee discusses, reads under certain circumstances

[00:16:23] again experts to discuss something with them and then makes a recommendation

[00:16:28] recommendation to the city senate or municipal council to decide on topic X in this way.

[00:16:35] Uschi: And whether a recommendation from a committee goes to the city senate or to the municipal council depends

[00:16:44] partly depends on the amounts involved. If the costs are neverdrihigher, the city senate is enough. At

[00:16:52] higher amounts, it also has to go to the municipal council or when it comes to guidelines. That has to

[00:16:57] in any case in the municipal council, so that is precisely regulated in the municipal law, which competence

[00:17:02] which committee has. But the committees themselves only have the right to make proposals and no independent

[00:17:08] right to make decisions. Tobias: Does that basically mean, if I understand it that way, that the Culture Committee,

[00:17:13] now I'll say, if it's not unanimous or if it's not recommended by the culture committee,

[00:17:22] to implement it, but how does it still end up in either a state senate or a local council?

[00:17:27] Uschi: Every decision, whether positive or negative, majority or unanimous, comes into the

[00:17:34] next higher body. And if the culture committee had decided not to take any

[00:17:40] of the projects and not implement anything now, then, so to speak, yes, in the end it would probably have been

[00:17:46] no recommendations would have been made at all, but there are zero decisions or no decisions

[00:17:51] mainly concern subsidies. If you apply to us for a cultural subsidy,

[00:17:55] then I would say, well, what he's doing [Uschi smiles, Tobias laughs] has nothing to do with culture or anything.

[00:18:01] Tobias: The podcast, for example.

[00:18:02] Uschi: There are no subsidies, but your application will still go to the state senate or local council,

[00:18:09] depending on how much you've applied for, but just rejected, but the local council

[00:18:14] or the state senate could still change the decisiondre.

[00:18:18] Irene: Theoretically, so of course they could, but the specialist committees of the local council

[00:18:24] are made up of municipal councillors, depending on the strength of their parliamentary groups in the

[00:18:31] municipal council. This means that if there is a full majority or unanimity in the

[00:18:36] Culture Committee for or against any particular topic or project, this is to be

[00:18:42] it can be assumed that there will be no change between the culture committee and the municipal council meeting two weeks later

[00:18:48] opinions change by 100 percentdreand then suddenly the majority is in favor of

[00:18:52] or against it. So it never actually happens in practice.

[00:18:57] If it's close, then it can, because of course the smaller ones, the one and two people in

[00:19:02] groups are not represented in the committees, only as listeners

[00:19:06] admitted, it could happen that a close result is thendreeither way.

[00:19:13] But I must also emphasize very clearly, because I am very, very pleased that especially

[00:19:18] unanimity or unanimity is actually normal in the culture of remembrance. Uschi: Unanimity actually always.

[00:19:26] Irene: Well, I don't want to say anything wrong, but I can't remember any of the

[00:19:31] projects that we have decided on and implemented or started in the last few years,

[00:19:35] to implement them, that there were any dissenting voices, i.e. from the small, one-person

[00:19:41] groups to the largest groups in the municipal council, regardless of political affiliation,

[00:19:47] there was always unanimity.

[00:19:49] And I think that's very, very important as a signal to the elected representatives

[00:19:56] of the people of Innsbruck are in agreement, arguing about many things.

[00:20:00] And that's a good thing.

[00:20:01] Tobias: That's also right.

[00:20:02] Irene: That's also the way to say it.

[00:20:03] Arguing or discussing controversially is nothing negative.

[00:20:07] I can see that, that's my opinion.

[00:20:09] But on these topics, after long, thorough preparations and discussions, we are on the same page

[00:20:15] of course,

[00:20:16] we are in agreement and also want to send this signal to the people of Innsbruck

[00:20:23] send.

[00:20:24] Uschi: Which wasn't really the case in earlier years and I think it also has something to do with that,

[00:20:29] that an incredibly lively and competent scientific scene has developed in Innsbruck. Irene: Definitely yes!

[00:20:37] Uschi: And we can draw on an extremely high level of expertise and we can also use it

[00:20:45] make very intensive use of it.

[00:20:47] Also thanks to the people, whether at the university or as mediators

[00:20:55] in schools or in the cultural sector.

[00:20:58] It's a wonderful form of collaboration and a great deal of trust has been built up over the years

[00:21:04] I think a great deal of trust has developed over the years, a mutual trust, and that is essential for bringing about the best possible

[00:21:10] broadly supported decisions I think is also very important.

[00:21:13] Irene: I completely share your assessment.

[00:21:16] We can really be extremely happy and grateful for the contemporary historians

[00:21:23] in Innsbruck.

[00:21:24] They are simply top-notch and I don't think I'm saying anything wrong when I say that they have

[00:21:33] in the last few years they've also realized that it makes sense to work with us.

[00:21:40] The fact that we don't just shout about dre, but make a real effort to find solutions

[00:21:44] find solutions, make progress and so on.

[00:21:47] So, no, I'll just say it now, I believe that in this area, we politicians

[00:21:54] have also proven to be reliable partners in recent years.

[00:21:59] They are already serious.

[00:22:00] Who don't just say something pious and unctuous in Sunday speeches, but

[00:22:06] who really want to make a difference.

[00:22:08] And especially in the area of remembrance culture, we've actually seen in these last six years

[00:22:15] made a lot of progress.

[00:22:17] Tobias: Maybe just to conclude, is there anything from your point of view that you would like to pass on?

[00:22:23] want to pass on.

[00:22:24] I think I can say it in that case, you're both leaving now at the next

[00:22:29] municipality or with the next election, from your offices.

[00:22:32] Is there anything you want to pass on to your successors in a political sense?

[00:22:38] or also to the population, where you say it's important to us that it continues to be

[00:22:44] remains so strong, which simply has to be preserved?

[00:22:48] Irene: When it comes to the culture of remembrance, I think it's very important to say that it's a process

[00:22:56] that can never be completed with the finalization of a very specific project

[00:23:02] or with the implementation of a project.

[00:23:05] Because the most important thing about the culture of remembrance for me is to recognize the past for its

[00:23:15] relevance for the present.

[00:23:18] So to say, what does that have to do with me?

[00:23:20] What does that have to do with my time?

[00:23:23] What does that have to do with what we do in the future?

[00:23:27] How do we want to live together in the future?

[00:23:29] How we raise our children, what we give them and so on and so forth.

[00:23:36] And that's why we've managed to implement a lot of things in the last few years, or at least

[00:23:42] on the way and I'm happy about that, but I think that also has to be

[00:23:47] next municipal council must be aware of that, that's not the end of it.

[00:23:51] And then we say, okay, thank God, we've chopped that off now, that's it [laughs].

[00:23:55] Can't be right, can't be right.

[00:23:58] Even if the time distance increases, it doesn't change the importance of the topics.

[00:24:06] And overall, I believe that the next municipal council should not underestimate that art

[00:24:18] and culture are simply a foodstuff.

[00:24:22] Mag be that someone rarely goes to the theater or hardly ever to concerts of any kind

[00:24:29] or that they say they get cramps at art openings Mage.

[00:24:34] It's all right, it's all right.

[00:24:36] Tobias: Definitely, yes.

[00:24:37] Nobody has to stand around at a vernissage and talk about a painting in a clever and educated way

[00:24:44] be able to talk about it.

[00:24:46] But culture and art are the fuel in our tank.

[00:24:55] I don't want to start a mobility debate now with the mobility city councillor

[00:25:01] Uschi Schwarzl.

[00:25:02] But the next municipal council should also be aware of this, and not just as a Sunday speech,

[00:25:12] because otherwise Innsbruck would no longer be Innsbruck and would be so much poorer than it is now

[00:25:20] is now.

[00:25:21] Uschi: Maybe I can start right away, because I... with culture in general

[00:25:26] my heart opens.

[00:25:28] Because you look a little bit outside the box and you don't have to go that far

[00:25:33] drive that far.

[00:25:34] Innsbruck is actually a small city, a medium-sized city and for its size it has

[00:25:44] cultural life, both in terms of its size and its population,

[00:25:49] that is actually sensational.

[00:25:51] Irene: I can only... I can only underline that! It really is like that.

[00:25:52] Uschi: In terms of variety, in terms of quantity and quality.

[00:25:58] And that's a treasure that needs to be cherished and that actually makes Innsbruck what it is.

[00:26:06] Innsbruck with only mountains and skiing would be poor.

[00:26:10] Innsbruck with these opportunities to go on a quick ski tour after work and

[00:26:16] and then go to a theater, it's incredible, it's unique.

[00:26:21] And I'm really out and about a lot at various events and it's becoming

[00:26:27] a lot of things are happening at the same time, but everything is always extremely well attended.

[00:26:32] And it would be fatal if a new municipal council wasn't aware of that.

[00:26:41] Point two on the culture of remembrance, I would like to say two things, a general one.

[00:26:47] I believe, as we have both already emphasized, that we have embarked on a very good, new path in the culture of remembrance since 2018.

[00:27:01] And it would be important and nice if the municipal council would continue on this path.

[00:27:07] And it's also very specifically about projects that have arisen from our work,

[00:27:14] to continue in a very concrete way.

[00:27:16] We will not have implemented the worthy commemoration of the Reichenau labor education camp until the municipal council,

[00:27:26] until the municipal elections.

[00:27:28] That means it will be up to the next municipal council to implement the final outcome of the competition.

[00:27:38] A new municipal council will implement the commemorative potential that we have just mentioned today,

[00:27:44] which have also emerged during this time and which are exactly where every year

[00:27:54] new forms of commemoration of the liberation of Mauthausen are possible and are implemented in accordance with the times.

[00:28:05] We also supported the research project on the Wehrmacht deserters.

[00:28:11] There will also be a personalized, but also localized commemoration based on these research results.

[00:28:25] Irene: Sorry, Uschi, if I'm sneaking in, the history of deserters, Wehrmacht deserters, was also very important to me.

[00:28:31] Unfortunately, we didn't get that any further..., we just didn't get that together.

[00:28:38] Uschi: Yes, because I think that's also...

[00:28:40] Irene: But it would be very important to me that something happens in the next few years.

[00:28:46] Uschi: But I think it's also a form of seriousness if you really work through the things, the projects bit by bit and don't do everything at the same time in a hysterical way, so to speak,

[00:28:58] because then the quality suffers.

[00:29:02] But we have, so to speak, set things in motion in terms of implementation and we have laid the foundations for future implementation and it is up to the next municipal council to make something of it.

[00:29:15] And I'm convinced that, regardless of the outcome of the election, what we've laid the foundations for won't be so easy to overturn.

[00:29:27] Tobias: I think that sums it up quite well on the subject of the culture of remembrance.

[00:29:31] It just has to be well thought out, it can't be a quick-fire decision.

[00:29:37] It needs committees behind it, it needs experts behind it who advise.

[00:29:42] And together, mostly, so far we've managed to get great projects off the ground thanks to your help.

[00:29:50] And you just have to say that loud and clear.

[00:29:52] [Outro music]

[00:30:08] Tobias: Archivwürrdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

Tobias: Hello and welcome to the seventh episode of our third season of Archivwürdig, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archives. In the two previous episodes, we already mentioned the "Zeitpunkte Innsbruck". The "Zeitpunkte" are Innsbruck's interpretation of the stumbling stones laid in many cities to commemorate people who were murdered during the Nazi regime. In this episode, we would like to present a summary of the official opening event of "Zeitpunkte", which took place on January 27, 2024. The event was opened by our Head of Cultural Affairs Isabelle Brandauer, who will also welcome you to our episode. #00:00:44-0#

[Intro music]

Isabelle: #00:00:59-7# (...) Ladies and gentlemen, I think there is hardly a better place in Innsbruck than the premises of the City Library to begin this ceremony with a quote from the great Austrian writer, pacifist and Jew Stefan Zweig. [Beginning quote] "On the day I lost my passport, I discovered at the age of 58 that you lose more with your homeland than a patch of enclosed earth" [end quote]. Zweig escaped the National Socialist terror by emigrating to London and later Brazil. His books were included on the list of book burnings. in 1942, Zweig and his wife Lotte took their own lives in Brazil. Zweig lived in Salzburg from 1919 until he fled to England. There is a stumbling block at his former place of residence. From August 2020 at the latest, the laying of Stumbling Stones in Innsbruck was also the subject of heated debate. Innsbruck decided to go its own way and set up a working group via the Culture Committee. Today, we are proud to present the result of these months of work. #00:02:25-1#

Tobias: #00:02:27-2# The mayor in office at the time of the recording, Georg Willi, had the following to say at the opening of these memorials. #00:02:34-3#

Willi: #00:02:35-1# We have come together to commemorate and remember the victims of National Socialism. We laid a wreath together earlier. But we have also come together to present how we want to live and experience a contemporary culture of remembrance in Innsbruck in the future. We want to remember. Our responsibility for the past, for the present and for the future. It is important to remember not only the atrocities, but also the people. Not only of their deaths, but also of their lives. Not as numbers, but with a name, an address, an identity, their history. I ended my words today at the wreath-laying ceremony at the memorial to the Reichenau labor education camp with these sentences. I wanted to begin my words of greeting here again with these words. We want to remember. Aware of our responsibility for the past, for the present and for the future. Remembering is deeply human. Memory, whether individual or collective, is always part of and a prerequisite for learning. The theoretical and practical knowledge accumulated in our memory helps us in everyday life and helps us in crises. We can recognize risks as such more quickly and prevent them. We can adapt our behavior and thus ourselves. We can even learn to remember better. We want to remember and must do so in a timely manner. This also means doing justice to the victims in particular, giving them back, at least symbolically, what was irretrievably taken from them under National Socialist rule. That is why we want to remember them not primarily as victims, but as human beings. I would like to repeat not only their deaths, but also their lives. Not as numbers. But with a name. With an address. With an identity. With history. And not separated in a museum, in an archive, shunted off to the edge of the city. Not limited to individual days of remembrance, but everyday and in the middle of the city. This is the idea behind the "Zeitpunkte" project: not only to make victims of National Socialism visible, but to create space for them in our city and thus enable interpersonal encounters at eye level across time and space. #00:05:49-7#

Tobias: #00:05:50-5# Afterwards, Stefan Amann from Proxydesign spoke about the concept of "Zeitpunkte" and Niko Hofinger from the Innsbruck City Archive about the concrete implementation of "Zeitpunkte". #00:06:01-4#

Stefan: #00:06:03-0# Yes, it's a great pleasure and a great honor to be here, together with Niko Hofinger on stage, and to introduce them to the "Zeitpunkte". Initially only on a conceptual level. We will then examine the originals together. The project group had laid the foundation, this decentralized commemoration that leads into the... into the urban space. And there you can already see that the "points in time" are actual points. Points in the city, but also points in history. And above all, they are points in... not only in history, but also points in the lives of the people who are primarily affected, namely the victims. And that's the core, so to speak. The important thing with the dates was not to summarize them per address, so to speak. Instead, we really wanted to commemorate each person individually. Out of respect for the individual person, but also to make visible the scale, the number of victims affected. And this individual commemoration and this point in people's lives has resulted in a very strong reduction of information, which focuses on people's lives. The mayor has already mentioned it, not only on death, but above all on people's lives, because they were Innsbruck residents who spent large parts or all of their lives here, who were part of a community. And we then radically shortened this information and with this empathic for oversight. And you can already tell from the text that someone is commemorating another person and, in my eyes, that's all it takes at first to feel that someone is commemorating someone else. Everything else, all the data, the biography, the context, you can call that up later. That's what digital media is for. They are wonderful, they are available everywhere. And the second thing is the formal value of form that was mentioned. Yes, and these "points in time" have become actual points. Short jumps, which are located in the urban space, are said to be about the size of the palm of your hand and they actually go - and this is also important to me - they are not industrial products, so to speak, but actually go through many hands. So even when you see them, they are basically very similar, but each one is a little bit different. That's down to the manufacturing process. I modeled the original form. Wolfgang Christmann casts them in bronze, Roland Atlassic polishes them, Angelika Hölzl engraves the names, Silli Baumann seals them and Matthias Praxmarer assembles them. And you can see that it goes through many hands. And that's more or less the beginning of remembering. And I believe that it is precisely this passing through many hands that results from the work of many hands and that the work that is done beforehand is not even taken into account in the research. I'm only speaking for my own modest part, so to speak. Exactly. I've just said it. You will find them digitally. Of course you can meet them, they change. As life changes, so do the "times", depending on the weather and the angle. And from whichever street corner I come from, they are sometimes quite inconspicuous. And sometimes, when the sun shines on them, they light up. And I think they enrich the cityscape in Innsbruck and are a beautiful and contemporary form that hopefully corresponds to the project group and what they wanted. #00:10:15-8#

Niko: #00:10:16-6# Thank you very much, Stefan. I can't even remember the day after school when our city archives director Lukas came in and said "We've found the ideal project". And to this day, I still think it was the ideal project. We started with all kinds of wishes, but you can never formulate them as precisely as a creative person who comes from a creative background can. And I personally am a big fan of reduction and there really is no better reduction than this for these "points in time". It works. And yes, thank you very much for this, for this great design and for all the support up to and including the website, which is online today. Of course, the website needs to be a strong companion and it also needs a group of people who feel responsible for the content. Under no circumstances should I forget to thank Horst Schreiber, who solved the difficult task for us of opening up the entire fan with the first group of possible biographies. Today, January 27th, Auschwitz Liberation Day. But these "points in time" cover a much wider variety of people. We have resistance fighters, deserters, a Jehovah's Witness, very different people who were killed by the National Socialists for a wide variety of reasons. And we have also included a Jewish family, simply because it fits in very well with today's date. Horst Schreiber first broke down the biographies, researched them and wrote them. And I think this work deserves a round of applause! Thank you, Horst [applause can be heard].

What happens next from our point of view? We hope it has already been mentioned twice. But I'll say it again: we really hope that people will say "Yes, that's exactly what I want in front of my house". And the stories continue. Last week we found a new Jewish victim of death from Innsbruck. New biographies are being told. We have a restriction that is once again very different from the Stumbling Stones. I would also like to say that at this point. We have oriented ourselves on the fact that there have been similar projects in many German cities, especially Bavarian cities. And in the end, it's always really about "wording" and the exact definition. And we said we would restrict it to people who died under National Socialism. That is a clear restriction. So that doesn't mean someone who had to flee for various reasons of racial persecution, for political reasons, not someone whose husband had to flee. So that, the very clear restriction to fatalities, clearly defines that. We stuck to an Augsburg definition that we actually liked very much in the group and where we said, well, that breaks it down, where remembering also makes sense as a city and as a city archive. #00:13:54-7#

Tobias: #00:13:56-0# Finally, I'll share with you an excerpt from the background discussion that took place in the city library after the opening ceremony. It will give you an insight into how this design competition came about in the first place.

Kurt Höretzeder: Yes, ladies and gentlemen, have a nice afternoon. This is now a so-called background discussion. #00:14:17-3#

#00:14:17-6# Funny, we're sitting on the stage without a background. [Quiet murmuring can be heard from the background]

It was a very, I would say, appropriate and dignified... event in the morning.

[Something has fallen over in the background]

But the fact that these stumbling blocks are now being unveiled in Innsbruck is the conclusion of a project lasting several years, and everything has already been said about it this morning. We would now like to give a few more insights into how the design competition came about. And that also explains why I'm sitting on the stage now, representing the WEI SRAUM [read: Weissraum], the design forum. We were commissioned by the city archive to accompany the design competition. And we do that regularly. Usually for topics that are either very complex, which was also the case here. Above all for public clients, which is of course very pleasing for us, because a certain role model effect from the public side is something that is of course very pleasing for every designer, especially in the field of design. And as WEI SRAUM, we have at least been able to contribute to a certain extent to the fact that this is gradually becoming common practice in Innsbruck, that when there are ambitious projects, we can support them. The memorial sign in Innsbruck, which was the working title and is now called "Zeitpunkte", was one such project and there is currently also a design competition that we are supporting, namely where the wreath-laying ceremony took place today in Reichenau, not far from where the current memorial stone stands, in the direction of the Inn, along the green corridor, there will hopefully be a memorial in a few years' time. That is actually the next step in this issue of the culture of remembrance in Innsbruck. We are also currently working on this. And we have already learned a great deal from the competition, and I would like to say very briefly that unfortunately it was all gentlemen. It wasn't intentional, it just turned out that way over time. But I would like to introduce it very briefly for those of you who do not yet know my interlocutors here so well. To my right, Stefan Amann works as a designer, is an interdisciplinary office, both in terms of access and geographically in Berlin, then in Hohenems and in Spain... Amann: Barcelona. Person? Barcelona! We've known each other for a long time. There was a competition six or seven years ago, which Proxy also won for Verkehrsverbund Tirol, a completely different area at the time. And Stefan and his office with his partners also have a very... I would say good name in his field in Austria. He is usually a very focused designer who... finds solutions that really get to the point. That was also one of the main reasons why you ultimately won the competition. To my left, Kurt Dornig. [Clears his throat]. Not Dörnig or Döring, as was written at the top of the slide today, but Kurt Dornig from Vorarlberg, Dornbirn. Why is Kurt there? On the one hand, because he is known as a graphic designer and illustrator, especially in the field of book design or corporate design. Perhaps everyone in Austria is familiar with the Biber catalogs, which are also managed by Kurt. So he's also one of the good designers who are not so rare in Vorarlberg; Vorarlberg has a relatively high and good [someone laughs in the background] density of designers. And Kurt Dornig was a jury chairman for the competition. And then Niko Hofinger. I read, Niko, that you are the house historian of the Jewish Community. I read that on Wallenstein Verlag, in your bio. But Niko, we've known each other for a long time. Incidentally, he also works in the field of, how shall we say, multimedia design. Many projects, including in the exhibition context, which you accompany, but of course he is also known as a historian in Innsbruck and also works in the city archive. Annika was also responsible for the technical implementation of the website for this project. For now the "points in time". And that's the reason why the four of us are sitting up here now. I would like to start with you, Kurt, describing how the competition went from your perspective as jury chairman. That's what we wanted in terms of content. At least one of the focal points. There are... well, there are words like "Never again", for example, that are said like that, and you hear them very often again right now, for understandable reasons. Nevertheless, language sometimes needs forms, manifestations. And this project of memorial signs, the original working title, was also an example of this. People like to say that words are smoke and mirrors. [Clears throat] Incidentally, the original quote is actually "Names are smoke and mirrors" from Goethe's Faust, for those who still know it somehow. And in this case it is quite literally so, so that such words or names are not so easily reduced to smoke and mirrors, in this case sadly also often to be understood proverbially, it is sometimes necessary to think about how to give such topics a form And that's what the design competition was for. Kurt, can you briefly describe from your perspective as chairman of the jury how the competition went? #00:20:15-9#

Kurt Dornig: #00:20:17-8# Yes. Thank you for the invitation. First of all, I would like to thank WEI SRAUM. As a partner for the organizer, the city of Innsbruck, and also on the other side for the creative people who... It's anything but a matter of course to have such a competent partner in the middle. And that's always a stroke of luck for both sides. Anyone who has ever taken part in a competition where there was simply an open call for entries and then everyone got involved knows what I'm talking about when everyone has to start working straight away before it's even clear what the framework conditions will be, etc. And that's where WEI SRA comes in. And the WEI SRAUM really is a role model in this respect. Something that we would also like to have in Vorarlberg in this form, where everything is taken care of very, very competently, everything is very transparent and the right creative agencies and design offices are invited accordingly. And that brings me to the topic you mentioned. The process was actually that you first put it out to tender openly. And with a very, very comprehensive and clear briefing. And the - I can't remember exactly - 20 or 25 creative offices that responded to this call for tenders were then reduced to six offices in an initial review with a points system, which then received a clear, invited competition brief. This was also linked to a detailed briefing. And in the jury, i.e. in this first round of judging, it was of course also very important to us that we included as wide a range of different design personalities as possible. In other words, young, old, different areas, different focuses, different life experiences. In other words, we wanted to be able to expect suggestions for solutions from as many directions as possible. And... In the presentation itself, it was really... Actually, this hope was also fulfilled to a certain extent. Basically, it has to be said that all six of the invited agencies and design offices have dealt extremely intensively with the topic, with the very sensitive topic [A door in the background closes], have informed themselves and in some cases have really come up with very different solutions. And... #00:23:31-0#

Kurt Dornig: #00:23:33-2# The... #00:23:33-5# [Long pause]

Kurt Dornig: #00:23:35-4# Whereby five of these six agencies... [Pause] Have found or sought a solution, an approach to a solution, by using all the information and we have already heard one of these biographies in great detail today. So of course you could present and write it in an even more reduced way, but they tried to put all this information on the spot. And during the presentations, it actually became quite clear that this would take up an extremely large amount of space, that some very large structures would have had to be built here in order to implement this, which of course involves a great deal of effort and expense, but also a great deal of maintenance. And also, unfortunately, it has to be said that vandalism is becoming more and more of an issue these days. And the solution from Proxy [pause]. It was actually convincing from... from the very first moment, because they didn't go down this route, because they were very reduced and yes, literally to the point... This memorial sign with incredible aesthetics and... and great empathy. Placed so naturally in the space that it is at eye level, which is also the difference to the memorial stones that are embedded in the ground and the stumbling blocks that are embedded in the ground, which are walked on, which are also exposed to the weather and do not fall into the face at eye level and and and and... They also form a striking part of the cityscape and street furniture. And today you have good opportunities with QR codes and websites etc. to place this background information in a very detailed form in another medium. And you were actually the only ones who came up with this solution, which I don't want to say is very obvious, but simply came up with it. And it was immediately convincing because it simply had the same aesthetic quality that we had seen in the presentation before. Funnily enough, if I may interject, I was immediately approached by a young woman, probably a student here in Innsbruck, who immediately asked me what, what, what was being unveiled here. It looks so beautiful and she immediately asked about the background information. And she was extremely impressed by what she saw. And he did. And I think we'll have this experience more often. #00:26:32-4#

Kurt Höretzeder: #00:26:34-8# Maybe you can add that it was also a unanimous jury decision. #00:26:38-4#

Kurt Höretzeder: #00:26:39-7# [clears throat] There are other competitions where you often have the good fortune that perhaps two almost equal, often very different approaches are chosen as winners. In this case, it was very clear. So it was actually clear to the entire jury that this was the winning project. I would also like to add very briefly. Larger design competitions are usually carried out anonymously. This means that the jury doesn't even know who the entrant is during the jury meeting. In this competition, it was definitely [clears throat] decided differently. That means there was a personal presentation of the various participants, invited participants and... #00:27:20-2#

#00:27:21-5# That, in turn, has the reason #00:27:22-5#

#00:27:22-5# in the fact that with such a sensitive topic. Then you have to somehow get a picture of the people behind it. And so they decided on this personal presentation. #00:27:34-6#

[Outro music]

Tobias: #00:27:53-0# (...) Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. #00:28:00-2#

Tobias: Hello and welcome to the eighth and final episode of our third season of Archivwürdig, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Archives. In today's episode, we would like to talk about the new memorial to the former Reichenau labor education camp. For this reason, I sat down with four members of the working group Pawlik, Denzer, Machat, Schlorhaufer, Ziegner to talk about their chosen winning project. Among other things, we talk about the genesis of the idea, its further development and also try to present the most important elements of the memorial site. [Intro music]

Tobias: In today's episode, we talk about the Reichenau memorial site project. You were chosen as the winning project in an international competition. We are currently in the process of implementing this project. And I think it's good for our listeners to hear about the project in general, but also, of course, how it came about. And to do this, I would perhaps like to start by having the people who were involved in the project introduce themselves. And I would say it's best to start with Ricarda and then move on to Hermann. Ricarda, if I could ask you to say a few words about yourself. #00:01:36-3#

Ricarda: #00:01:38-7# Yes, my name is Ricarda Denzer. I came to the project as a visual artist, as part of it or involved in it. I went to school in Tyrol, had a brief excursion into architecture in Innsbruck, then began my studies in Vienna at the Angewandte, studied conceptual art and worked as a freelancer for over 20 years and now also have a teaching position as a senior lecturer at the Angewandte, where I spent five years as head of transdisciplinary art, the Trans Arts Co. and I am still working there as a senior lecturer, have done a whole series of projects in public space, site-specific projects, have a strong connection to spoken language, oral history, working with audiovisual media as well as installative settings and site-specific works. The question of memory and the culture of remembrance runs through all my work to this day. #00:02:39-5#

Tobias: #00:02:39-9# Thank you very much, Hermann, if I can go on to you... Hermann: Yes. Tobias: May I give. #00:02:43-7#

Hermann: #00:02:43-7# My name is Hermann Ziegner. I was born in Innsbruck, studied architecture here in Innsbruck and then finished my studies in New York. I've been living in New York for 25 years now and have a small agency for data visualization and information aesthetics. Yes, and in the project I was mainly responsible for the website and the graphic concept and of course the entire concept. #00:03:13-1#

Tobias: #00:03:13-6# Then I'd like to introduce a person I haven't mentioned yet. And may I ask Heinz, if you introduce Bettina in your absence. Heinz: With pleasure. #00:03:24-4#

Heinz: #00:03:24-4# My name is Bettina Schlorhaufer [everyone laughs]. I'm an art historian and head of two institutes at the Faculty of Architecture in Innsbruck. She works at the Institute for Architectural History and the Institute for Architectural Theory. We have a long-standing friendship with Bettina Schlorhaufer, and we asked her to join the project because she has great expertise in all things to do with contemporary history, especially the history of architecture in contemporary history and research into the 20th century in Tyrol and South Tyrol. Bettina is also an excellent writer, which is why, in addition to the precise and accurate research of images and graphic material as a basis for the competition, she also prepared texts for us, conducted text and source research and took on the content review of our project. #00:04:27-6#

Tobias: #00:04:28-0# Then I can hand over to Heike, who briefly introduces herself. #00:04:31-4#

Heike: #00:04:31-8# Thank you very much. Yes, my name is Heike Pawlik. I'm an architect in Innsbruck. I also studied architecture in Innsbruck. In addition to my office work, I also work at the university, at the Institute for Experimental Architecture, Building Construction, and before I worked there, and before I had my own architectural office, I ran an agency, an office for web design and media design, together with Heinz Machat. #00:05:10-4#

Tobias: #00:05:10-9# Last but not least, I'd like to ask Heinz to introduce himself. #00:05:15-6#

Heinz: #00:05:15-9# My name is Karl Heinz Machat. Like Hermann and Heike, I studied architecture in Innsbruck, with a period of study in the USA, in Los Angeles. In addition to architecture and furniture design, Heike and I also worked on e-learning projects and knowledge management in our office and have recently become more and more involved in architecture and art projects alongside our teaching activities at the university. #00:05:45-9#

Tobias: #00:05:46-4# Now there has been this call for proposals or the international call to participate in the project for a new memorial site or for a memorial site in Reichenau. How did you come together as a group in this constellation, so to speak? Did the ball start rolling with one person? And is that the good old snowball effect? And...#00:06:08-3#

Heike: #00:06:08-3# Hermann should answer that. Hermann: There was... #00:06:11-5#

Hermann: #00:06:11-5# ...there was a funny detour somehow via New York. I got an email from an architect friend of mine and he drew my attention to this competition and we had actually already considered doing it together and then I looked into the matter and then this collaboration didn't take place after all. But then I... was already so involved in the subject matter that I spontaneously sent these documents to Heinz, who I know from my student days, and said "You're interested in this, should we take part?" Heinz: And the short answer was yes, immediately. [Laughter] We, we'll apply. I forwarded the question to Heike. #00:06:54-8#

Heike: #00:06:56-3# And the answer was clearly yes, immediately. And I passed the question on to Ricarda. [Laughs] #00:07:01-4#

Tobias: #00:07:02-0# And that's how the whole thing got going. Hermann: [laughing] That was a domino effect. #00:07:05-0#

Tobias: #00:07:05-1# Can you confirm that Ricarda? #00:07:06-0#

Ricarda: #00:07:06-1# I can absolutely confirm that. Exactly. #00:07:08-7#

[Tobias: #00:07:13-1# Where is the first point that you might approach a project like this? Do you think about the architectural aspects first? Or is it difficult to get to grips with anything at all? #00:07:25-9#

Hermann: #00:07:26-9# Maybe I can say something very briefly. We met for the first time in January, on January 2nd at Bettina's institute. And it was actually clear to us relatively quickly that we were going to approach this in a very non-hierarchical way. Although there were these areas, i.e. web design, the didactic concept of architecture, the artistic intervention. But between the five of us, it was actually clear from the start that we would approach everything as a group and flatten out these areas of responsibility in that sense. And let's say we now take it as an overall project in terms of content and concept. Heinz: So perhaps a quick comment: the preparations for this joint collaboration took place in the time before Christmas and perhaps the first thing you do is start to look into it in more detail, because you know something about the topic from hearsay and you've heard something at some point and perhaps informed yourself about it with more or less interest, but you don't actually tackle the books and publications that are available on the subject until you really have to. And it was a pretty tough time, I have to say. So to actually see how many people and under what circumstances they were held prisoner in Innsbruck, in Reichenau, that was quite impressive. We came into this time of cooperation with a primer, so to speak. #00:09:01-6#

Heike: #00:09:02-1# Into this physical collaboration, you have to say. That was the first time the five of us really met together on site. And in the preparatory phase, of course, we also looked at the property that was available to us. It's a very... we'll certainly go into it later, a somewhat extreme piece of land that we first had to get to know, so to speak, and get to grips with. And at the same time, there was also a theoretical examination of the culture of remembrance. Ricarda might have something to say about that. #00:09:37-0#

Ricarda: #00:09:37-0# For me, it's somehow important to simply start from the place that is intended for the memorial. Simply to see what you find there? What characterizes this place? And it's a place with different speeds. The cyclists, the pedestrians. And then it's a transit area. It's a place that is open on both sides. And it's a riverside promenade. In other words, our memorial site stretches along the Inn. And I think that also characterizes in a very special way that the approach or the decisions we made there for the project. #00:10:20-1#

[Tobias: #00:10:24-3# Then I would say that we really talk about the concrete or more concrete process that took place for you. We have it in the introduction or in the performances. Yes, Herrmann mentioned it. You're a bit spread out, not all of you are always in Innsbruck. It's probably not always so easy logistically to sit down together and continue working on the overall concept, of course. How and building on that, so to speak, what does it really look like in practice? Hermann: That's a good question. #00:10:55-7#

Hermann: #00:10:55-8# Well, the... this... this first meeting back in January was of course very intensive, it lasted a week, we met more or less all day every day and we debated a lot and because of that, of course, it was such an emotional topic, it was also very difficult. But in the end, the aim of this week was for us to clarify the topics that we wanted to address with this project. And after a week, we ended up with a large board in the institute with keywords and ideas that we then tried to incorporate in a variety of ways in the approach to a project that was architectural or graphic or artistic and one of these keywords was this idea of the. Of the fragment, of the fragment of memory. Yes, because relatively little is known in terms of actual information. We don't know the names of all the forced laborers and we only know 117 names of the people who died there. And otherwise there are just fragments, fragments of memory that are still there in the population and in my family, for example. So my mother can still remember the camp, but as a small child, how the camp was the denazification camp again. And my father can remember my grandfather, who also worked with the forced laborers in the roofing workshop. #00:12:35-7#

Heike: #00:12:36-0# Yes, I think I'd like to follow on from what Hermann said, because this week of working together and marking out the area, that's how it often is with competitions, then at the end you feel completely exhausted and actually have very little there, very little concrete. So somehow it has to continue to work in you and you think about it and then you try to find correspondences for these ideas and themes and get closer to them so that these themes become concrete and manifest themselves in a physical realization. And that was the work that we approached from different directions, so to speak. The first thing that manifested itself was the graphic idea of a treatment of the surface with a kind of pattern, I'll just call it that, and then the treatment of the terrain developed out of that, which or that complemented each other. [longer pause] Which the... Tobias: You're welcome to join in Heinz. Heike: Yes, exactly. Please Heinz, then... [laughs] #00:14:01-4#

Tobias: #00:14:01-9# You don't have to, #00:14:02-4#

Tobias: #00:14:02-4# but you're welcome to interject. #00:14:03-8# [Heike laughs in the background]

Heinz: #00:14:04-7# So I'd like to interject and pass this on to Ricarda, because I think at the beginning there really was the question of the representation of these victims. It was about. It was about the people and actually this pattern, the graphic pattern that emerged, had to do with the fact that we actually want to refer to over 8,000 people with what is supposed to be there. And that was actually, I think, the starting point in the preparation. #00:14:28-8#

Ricarda: #00:14:30-3# Maybe I can add something to that. The pattern naturally reinforces a movement that runs the entire length of the place. And this movement arises from the idea that something becomes visible, in the sense that something appears that perhaps cannot be named at first. And we have found an analogy there, simply looking at the Inn and the flowing, the flowing river. If you look from one bank to the other, if there is a current or a deviation in the flow within this surface, then you can assume that something is taking effect from below, that there is some kind of resistance or something is somehow disrupting this usual flow. Yes, it leaves a trace. And from this thinking in traces of this drawing and so on, this pattern also reinforces this surface of this landscape, where something becomes visible. It's like a basic narrative, or how do you see it? #00:15:35-7#

Heinz: #00:15:36-3# Yes, I would go even further Ric [short form for Ricarda], that this pressure that comes from below, where you what, where that, what gets stuck and brings things to the top, that this pattern was already well suited to represent or point out these many thousands of people. But of those we knew more about, I think we then decided relatively quickly that we wanted to show more. And that's when we came up with the idea of this drill core, where we actually get something out of this underground. And this underground actually gives us this representation and it also gets this name from this person. #00:16:20-5#

Ricarda: #00:16:20-9# The nice thing is that different ideas play a role here, they go hand in hand, because of course we're also talking about the question "What do we find?" Of course also from the archaeological finds, which are there as concrete material, and the question of probing, i.e. this going into depth and seeing what historical fragments can actually be found there and this fragmentary nature, this finding from the depths, i.e. this, which of course can also be described as sounding, i.e. listening in depth [laughs] or and then working with these fragments. And then we have this fragment of memory that Mr. Herrmann mentioned, but also the saying. Of course, it's one thing to get something out of the ground and to make it visible like a drill core. Yes, somehow we can't think of the right words or something, but we work with what's there. #00:17:15-5#

Hermann: #00:17:15-6# That's the interesting thing about the sounding, that it's also incomplete, or it's just a sample, a part of the whole. And that's how we saw it throughout the whole project, isn't it? And at the same time, we also did our own probing and started talking to the people we knew and doing this memory probing. In other words, to find these fragments and it very quickly became clear to us that a large part of the population still has memories of the camp and of that time and then, of course, what also comes out very clearly in this historical text by Dr. Pitscheider is how involved the city was with this camp and it is basically a history of the city. Of course, it is also the story of the people who were killed there, but for the most part, and I think that was a defining element of our project, it is a story of the city. And this uncovering, this probing of these fragments actually became the program. #00:18:23-2#

Tobias:#00:18:24-2# You have to say that this part of the city's history has been dormant for a very long time. So the depths have been dormant for a very long time. That was known on the surface. It was the subsequent use Hermann: Yes. Tobias: Which we've already talked about, it was there. These are people who lived in there and then it was gone and then there was always so little talk about it. Hermann: Yes. #00:18:43-4#

Hermann: #00:18:43-7# But if you talk to the people now, they still remember. It was mainly Heike and Ricarda who started conducting interviews. Maybe you'll say something about that. #00:18:56-1#

Heike: #00:18:56-1# Yes, I'd love to. Then we did. We had the good fortune... We... Well, I wanted to mention this very briefly beforehand to explain it: The program of this competition was not just the memorial site, the design of the memorial site on site. It also included several other points. It was about imparting knowledge, it was about a didactic concept. It was about creating an online representation and an archive. That was what we added to it, so to speak. And we were lucky enough to be able to ask Dr. Rauchegger-Fischer for the didactic concept to complement our team, so to speak. And she in turn put us in touch with two descendants of a former camp inmate who agreed to conduct interviews with us and thus hopefully open up a series of interviews with contemporary witnesses, secondary contemporary witnesses, which we would also like to collect as documentation material for this website. #00:20:09-3#

Ricarda: #00:20:10-7# Which shows once again that the project and the work on the project was transdisciplinary and interdisciplinary right from the start. In other words, everything that has been created has been created in relation to each other and is related to the respective fields and considerations and to the respective knowledge, and I think that makes it somehow very special. Of course, this also makes it partly intuitive, fragile and ambivalent. But it is something that is in motion. And that's really important to us as a basic prerequisite for a question like "What should this place be able to do?" Yes, the place itself also has something of a passage, but it's this movement, so to speak, that you don't simply conquer and master or systematize something, but that you say that what we want to tell there is also the way we work or we work, we try to work in a way that is somehow an important narrative for us there or a procedure. #00:21:13-8#

[Tobias: #00:21:18-5# But I would say we're already taking this step further towards the way the project is now. I don't know how best to do it. We'll just talk about the individual elements and then everyone can just add to it. Let's perhaps start again with the location, so that we pick up all the people again. In other words, we have on this green strip, which is now roughly from [longer pause] yes... #00:21:42-3#

Heike: #00:21:42-8# May I? I'd like to describe it, I'd like to describe it, because I wrote down the data. Tobias: Yes, very nice. [both laugh] Heike: So it's, it's about the green strip. Ricarda had already described it very well between the footpath and cycle path on the banks of the Inn outside the Grenoble Bridge towards the quarry pond, which is probably a household name for Innsbruck residents, and the competition area we were given is around 260 meters long and between six and 14 meters wide. So it's like this, it gets narrower and wider again and has a belly in between and is a green strip that is loosely planted with trees. And on this strip we were allowed to choose where and how we wanted to play. And we quickly decided that we wanted to use the whole field for it. #00:22:41-6#

Tobias: #00:22:42-3# May I... I'm now playing the ignorant person who knows, but uses how? #00:22:46-5# [both laugh]

Hermann: #00:22:48-0# Yes, as we've already mentioned a few times, this is actually a landscape, and that is that there was this play on words between walking and thinking, that is, the commemoration, this, this moving along from this wave, from this, from this landscape and there over these floor slabs, these, these fragments, to get a sense of how many fates were affected there. And then, of course, to see these name stones. These 114, um, 117 memorial stones, where the names are explicitly mentioned again. That's also very important to us. #00:23:27-9#

Tobias: #00:23:28-6# I'm thinking of the, well, the paving is also on the estimated 8/2 8000 people who came through this camp, so to speak, and the 114 name stones, the memorial stones, we should also go into that a bit separately... Hermann: Yes. Tobias: Simply to recognize, to describe that. So for those who [unintelligible] hear and don't see, in that case, perhaps, Heinz, if you don't mind, you can also briefly explain the thoughts behind these stones. Heinz: The stones #00:23:58-2#

Heinz: #00:23:58-2# They are part of this carpet of fragments. So every single person is a fragment. #00:24:05-3#

Heinz: #00:24:05-6# But that's us, because we know more #00:24:07-7# about these people

Heinz: #00:24:07-7# because they died violently in the camp or died of illness or were executed, we know from the death certificate who they were, where they came from and that's why we were able to identify them more closely. And just like a drill core, the name stone takes the subsoil up with it and confronts us. And we have decided to provide a slight incline on this upper surface, on which the name is then placed so that it confronts us. And perhaps, when the weather is nice, when the sun is right, this smooth surface will reflect a part of ourselves, because we have no images of these people. We have no photos, no other testimonies. #00:24:52-2#

Heinz: #00:24:52-8# And these, these #00:24:53-6#

Heinz: #00:24:53-6# People came to this camp in Reichenau either alone or in groups, were still connected to their homeland or their places of origin and we decided that this slight inclination towards their origin would become part of this name stone, so that each of these stones would have different heights, different materials and also this different inclination in order to individualize these people. And in the arrangement across this surface, which Heike described earlier, we decided to find a certain order. And that would then somehow be left to Heike to describe. #00:25:33-4#

Tobias: #00:25:33-4# But when I do, because that's something I really like, that the name is on it, that the dates of life are on it, because especially in the camp people were dehumanized, they got a number and no longer a name. So of course some of them were already recognizable, but for me at least it's like giving them back the name they deserve, which is their name. Hermann: Yes, there #00:25:57-4#

Hermann: #00:25:57-4# You're right. That's quite interesting. We noticed that too. In this list of the deceased, the deceased of Jewish origin are clearly recognizable, because they were all called either Israel or Sara. That was also discussed internally. Should we now take back these names and practically not include this Israel and and and Sara in the name, or not? But the fact of the name was already a very important part for us. Heinz: And I could bring Bettina into play again with a short quote, because she once said that through this, through this intervention, we give people a face back. And I think that's what it's a bit about. So the name is really a representation of the person behind it and how they appeared to us. Hermann: Yes, you wanted to say something else about the time... [unintelligible]. Heike: Exactly. #00:26:52-8#

Heike: #00:26:53-2# So we then, we wanted to represent these 100, at that time 114, deceased people and then the question arose as to how we could place these stones on the site. And then we had the idea of using this long plot of land, which would actually be very difficult, on the one hand, but on the other hand would offer the possibility of using this long plot of land as a kind of calendar. So we virtually divided the plot into the months of the camp's existence and placed the name stones on the dates of death. And so it's actually quite easy to recognize, or to see quite clearly, that there are times when, as they say, a lot of people died. Simply because it was cold, because it was cruel, because a change of guard created even more cruel conditions in the camp and so on. Tobias: Also changes #00:27:51-6#

Tobias: #00:27:51-6# the use, so the where, so where it was then also used much more as an interim camp or transit camp, which was then from [19]43 onwards, as you say, very close to [19]43. #00:28:06-5#

Heike: #00:28:06-6# Yes, exactly and and and #00:28:08-2#

Heike: #00:28:08-2# So that it's also clear for people who will walk through the area that there were times that were particularly hard in the camp and where a lot of people died. And perhaps I can also add to this. Heinz described earlier how the people were thrown together. So you can imagine when they, when a group of these name stones with different inclinations and different colors stand close together, that represents people who sometimes couldn't even understand each other because they didn't speak the same language, because they came from somewhere in Russia, Ukraine, Poland. And then there was also this extreme situation of loneliness and speechlessness. #00:29:00-3#

[Tobias: #00:29:04-7# That means we have the landscaping with the name stones. There's also a structural aspect, a larger one, the so-called pavilion. Could you perhaps briefly explain to me what it's supposed to look like and also what the idea behind this look is? #00:29:22-4#

Heinz: #00:29:23-0# Um, yes, with pleasure. So originally we actually wanted to keep this part as small as possible. We wanted to provide information about this place on site, of course, but we wanted it to be the memorial site itself. Hermann said it earlier about walking and thinking. And that with the corresponding sense of hearing and listening experience of the stories or what else will be heard with this audio path and this simply being there and being in this place, in this landscape, would also have meant being exposed to the inclemency of the weather. If it rains, it rains and we would have provided very little weather... or weather protection. Originally, because we believe or actually thought that it makes little sense to put architecture there on its own. That some special, special part should almost act as a temple or something, but that it is actually about the place itself and about what is shown there and what can be experienced there. And we weren't entirely satisfied with ourselves. So in terms of providing detailed information, in terms of the possibility for people to gather there, we were asked to expand on these ideas and not just intervene minimally. Hermann, what would you say to that? Hermann: I think that what was perhaps a little less clear to us at the beginning was how important it is to impart knowledge on site. And that was of course a good reminder from the jury to stop us. Because the school classes and visitors who visit this place really need to be involved in the history. And the history of the camp and the history of this camp network. Once again, I would like to emphasize very clearly that this is not just about Reichenau. There were several camps, also in Innsbruck and Tyrol and throughout the German Reich. Telling this story is a story that is still little told. And now we basically have two large information boards and a place with street furniture that allows smaller groups to meet there and deal with the subject matter. #00:31:38-7#

Heike: #00:31:39-4# Yes, perhaps a brief description of this pavilion. It's actually a roof with an area of about 160 square meters made of steel, which is supported by steel columns at a height of just over 3 meters above the ground. And under this roof are two walls. One 12 meters long, one 11 meters long, which carry the information that Hermann has just described, in varying degrees of detail, depending on the speed of movement of the people who either pass by on their bikes or on foot or who sit or stand in the middle under this roofing and can read the information. And this roof, this pavilion roof, also represents the many different places of origin or the paths of the people who have crossed in this camp via steel beams laid in a criss-cross pattern, and the roof is only partially closed and in parts it is completely open. So it can rain through. It is then less protective than you would perceive a roof to be. And there are sections in this roof that are then replaced, where the roof surface is replaced by other elements. And maybe Ricarda could say something about that. #00:33:10-1#

Ricarda: #00:33:10-7# Yes, exactly. So. It was passed on to me because I mentioned the archaeologists' findings before. And among other things, there are a whole series of colorful shards of glass. And these shards of glass naturally also have an analogy in this fragmentation of the roof. And for us, they are also a nice motif for thinking or as a motif, both visually and in terms of content, because of course the question is, we have a fragment of something that is no longer whole, how do we now fill the gaps with an idea, with a narrative? Or do we leave these empty spaces and the visitors are also invited, so to speak, to fill these spaces with their own memories, experiences and stories. In other words, this is of course also something that can be told very well in the audio path. But it is also expressed in the architecture of the pavilion. #00:34:18-6#

Tobias: #00:34:18-9# That was also the ideal keyword. Thank you Ricarda. The audio path, that's what I wanted to talk about next in the background. Of course, we live in modern times and information must always be up to date. And that's where the archive you've already written about, Heike, the website in the background, is important. Let's go into this a little. Let's start with the audio path, I would say. An audio path is planned in the background and I'm now looking at or pointing to the one on my cell phone, where I've added Ricarda. If you can perhaps give us a little insight, Ricarda, into this audio path, what you can imagine it to be. #00:34:58-8#

Ricarda: #00:35:00-8# Basically, it's an offer to the visitors. In addition to the opportunity to simply walk along the path themselves, to also experience this audio piece, these connections, to walk along it. And these pieces are located at very specific points in this place, which create both historical references and references to the present, to the place between field recordings and historical recordings, between narratives and compositions. So I'm going to leave that a bit open, but it is, so to speak, a way of making the place present and, above all, the past of this place with its history, but also to establish a connection to the present, because of course, knowing that there is also a website that can go much deeper and more detailed into the historical contexts, it should definitely also be a poetic mediation, i.e. also a transfer of knowledge. A place of learning also consists of not telling everything, but also leaving space for those who listen. And listening simply has a very specific quality. It relates to the world, it creates a closeness and yes, for us that is somehow an important moment between didactic mediation, historical facts and the poetic creation of references. #00:36:39-9#

Hermann: #00:36:40-1# Yes, if I can briefly mention the website again, it's just like all the other parts of this memorial site that we want to create, it's not just a website. So this, this, it can or should be able to do more. And Ricarda has already mentioned that. Of course, this is primarily a place to impart knowledge, also for teachers. They can log in there, can get material there, more information, more image material. So even for people who can't be there, it's just as important a place to find these things and get information in several languages. But this archive of memory fragments will also be an integral part of the website. So the opportunity to listen to these stories, these interviews, is also available via the web portal. #00:37:42-0#

[Tobias: #00:37:46-7# Have we forgotten something that you might forget because we're already so involved in the topic? Heinz is already pointing it out. Heinz: A little something. Tobias: Please. #00:37:56-9#

Heinz: #00:37:57-1# So actually it's not a small thing, it's already #00:37:59-4#

Heinz: #00:38:00-4# of importance. Namely this, this pavilion. Ricarda already mentioned it earlier in relation to the audio path. This pavilion is also an offer. We've also positioned it and arranged it in such a way that it's actually easy to walk past. So we haven't put it in anyone's way. We don't force anyone to look at it, but we have tried to design it in such a way that you are drawn in and can actually come to rest between the two walls. And yet, if you take up the offer, you can linger there quite well. You can also meet up there. And in this respect, I think the pavilion is also the link between the audio path, between the memorial site itself, this landscape, between the fact that there is a virtual offer where you can inform yourself in depth and where work continues. So with this pavilion, we intend to show current information and current developments. That there may be parallel developments with other media such as a graphic novel that is created and then exhibited there, with possibly lecture activities that can somehow be represented there or perhaps even always have the pavilion as a goal or starting point. So we see this culture of remembrance less as a monument, where we say we're making a statement and that's how it will be forever, but actually the memorial site itself, and this pavilion in particular, is really just a point in the landscape from which this culture of remembrance has to start again and again and where it has to keep finding its way and where it has to keep coming up with and practising new forms over time. Hermann: I think you've said something very important. The monument always runs the risk of becoming a non-place. Either it is too sacred or too untouchable. The good fortune that we have with this place, in quotation marks, is that it is next to the camp, so as such it doesn't have this genius loci [literally meaning "the spirit of the place"]. But we really didn't want to create a non-place. So it's not a place that is now urging people to be affected. It can, if you deal with it, but you can also walk past it. Of course, we hope that nobody will walk past it in that sense. But not taking it away from the city was almost important to us in a way. #00:40:21-4#

[Outro music]

Tobias: #00:40:41-9# Archivwürdig is a production of the Stadtarchiv Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. #00:40:48-6#

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulates]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Shelly: Boah, so today I'm really bored on the trail.

[00:00:23] I forgot to pack myself a special good tea

[00:00:27] and I looked for another one in the break room, but I only found black tea.

[00:00:31] What do you drink?

[00:00:33] Jaci: I'm having a fruity bear today.

[00:00:36] Shelly: [both laugh] A fruity bear.

[00:00:38] Jaci: Sometimes I just need a fruit tea that pops.

[00:00:42] Shelly: Ah good, it's going to be fun today. [both laugh] [Soundbite: Tea is poured, cup clinks, tea is drunk]

[00:00:54] Shelly: Hello and welcome to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:00:59] and today again with a new episode of Teatime, in which Jaci and I

[00:01:04] talk about internet culture and literature.

[00:01:08] And I can spoil you in advance, you won't hear much from me today in this episode,

[00:01:14] because it will mainly be Jaci guiding us through the episode today,

[00:01:18] because we're tackling a project close to her heart today.

[00:01:21] What's it about today, Jaci?

[00:01:23] Jaci: Today is the day of all days, [Shelly laughs] because today is about a very special topic.

[00:01:30] Today is about "A Court of Thornes and Roses", my favorite book series by Sarah J. Maas.

[00:01:36] Shelly: In German? - Jaci: "The Realm of the Seven Courts." We'll ignore the bad translation. [laughs]

[00:01:42] We're going to deal with the English ... so we're going to use "A Court of Thornes and Roses", the title,

[00:01:47] or the abbreviation "ACOTAR" - for the connoisseurs.

[00:01:52] Shelly: I count myself among the connoisseurs by now.

[00:01:55] So you may already know this series, "The Realm of the Seven Courts", from our TBR episode.

[00:02:02] And that was one of the top things I wanted to read this year.

[00:02:07] And it's now the end of March and I can proudly say I've already read them all in February.

[00:02:15] [Jaci claps, shouts, "Barvo"] Let's hear it!

[00:02:17] Yeah, so I'm ready for this episode.

[00:02:21] Jaci: Perfect, me too.

[00:02:23] I'm already sorry when I do long monologues, [laughs] Shakespeare-esque long monologues.

[00:02:29] But Shelly's here today to slow me down and it's gonna be great.

[00:02:33] Shelly: What's your background with this book series anyway?

[00:02:37] Why are you so obsessed with it?

[00:02:39] Jaci: I can't pinpoint exactly why I'm so crazy about the series or why I like it so much Mag.

[00:02:47] I started reading it when I was 16 and it was just one of the first fantasy series that just grabbed me.

[00:02:58] Well, I've read another series by the author called "Throne of Glass".

[00:03:03] And that's for younger readers and the "ACOTAR" series is for older readers, so YA, for young adults.

[00:03:15] And I simply fell in love with the characters and was enchanted by the world right from the start.

[00:03:23] And then I got older and the characters got older and it was just like growing with the characters.

[00:03:30] And [smiling] I also wrote my bachelor's thesis about the development process of the protagonist.

[00:03:37] And what distinguishes a fantastic development process or coming of age process, I also called it in the thesis, from a normal, so to speak, non-fantastic one.

[00:03:48] And spoiler, that's why we're going to talk a bit, so that I can contribute my expertise.

[00:03:54] Exactly, but I don't know exactly where my obsession came from, but I'm very glad that I was able to motivate, coerce or persuade dear Shelly to read the series.

[00:04:06] And am now looking forward to the sequel. I'm very nervous because I'm really looking forward to the episode.

[00:04:12] I'm euphorically nervous, if that makes sense.

[00:04:15] Exactly, I would ask Shelly now how she felt about reading the series. So what was your first impression of the series?

[00:04:25] Okay, so I have to say right up front, I read it in German because we have it in the library in German, both as a book and as an e-book.

[00:04:36] I alternated a bit between what was available, because this series is borrowed very, very often.

[00:04:42] Jaci: And rightly so.

[00:04:43] Shelly: I had a fight with someone, [both laugh] he always borrowed before me and I had to wait.

[00:04:49] The first part, "The Realm of the Seven Courts". What's the name of the first part?

[00:04:54] Jaci: "Thorns and Roses".

[00:04:55] Shelly: "Thorns and Roses", exactly. Yes. It was okay.

[00:05:01] I was thinking while I was reading it, boah, if I was 13, 14 years old now, that would pick me up so much.

[00:05:08] But now that I'm 23, it was rather nice, just sprinkled in between, it fits, it's nice.

[00:05:20] And then I said to Jaci, yes, it's not really my thing.

[00:05:25] And then Jaci said, wait and see, start with the second one.

[00:05:30] Jaci: Well, the second one is the best part in my opinion, it's also one of my absolute favorite books.

[00:05:35] I know you can't really favor anyone in a series, but the second book is just good.

[00:05:40] And I think they just get better and better because the author has simply grown with the series for me.

[00:05:46] And she's just totally evolved in terms of the worldbuilding.

[00:05:51] That's great.

[00:05:53] I'm glad you kept reading it.

[00:05:55] Shelly: Yeah, me too. No, really.

[00:05:56] So from the second book on, that's where I went.

[00:05:59] The worldbuilding, as you say, it was so much more believable, so much more authentic, as authentic as a fantasy book can be.

[00:06:07] And that was a really nice reading experience.

[00:06:11] We can argue about the fourth part.

[00:06:15] That's the more controversial book in the series.

[00:06:18] It's much thinner than all the others, it's somehow only about 400 pages, I think.

[00:06:23] Jaci: Not even.

[00:06:24] Shelly: Not once, right?

[00:06:25] And "this could have been an e-mail". [laughs]

[00:06:28] Jaci: No! - Shelly: That could have just ... nothing happened in there.

[00:06:33] That was so nice to read, so cute and sweet, a little bit Christmasy and nice.

[00:06:40] But nothing happened.

[00:06:41] You could have saved yourself the trouble. [laughs]

[00:06:43] Jaci: Okay, okay.

[00:06:44] Yeah, I understand the argument, but I don't understand it either.

[00:06:48] Right, I'll just briefly summarize what the series is for the listeners who don't know the series.

[00:06:55] But right up front, we're going to have many, many, many spoilers here in this episode.

[00:07:00] So if someone doesn't know the series and wants to read it and have an un-spoilered reading experience,

[00:07:07] then tune out now, you've been warned.

[00:07:10] But today we're just going to talk about everything that happens in all the volumes and not just the first one.

[00:07:17] Exactly.

[00:07:18] The "ACOTAR" book series consists of four novels and a novella, with the first three novels and the novella being about Feyre.

[00:07:29] And the last volume is about her sister Nesta.

[00:07:33] Shelly: [laughs] That rhymed: Sister - Nesta.

[00:07:36] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:07:37] And on this series with these four novels and a novella, this whole, this whole episode is happening now.

[00:07:45] This "ACOTAR" refers to all these volumes, what I just said.

[00:07:49] We're assuming a little bit that the listeners who are listening now know the story because it's an ACOTAR special and it's easier to find your way around.

[00:07:58] I'll summarize very briefly what the series is about, just so that you have a feeling that you're all at the same level again.

[00:08:05] We follow Feyre, who is 19 years old at the beginning of the first novel, in the first three novels and the novella.

[00:08:12] Feyre lives with her two older sisters, Nesta and Elain, in the human realm, which borders the land of Prythian, and in this land live not humans, but the magical fae, or fae.

[00:08:26] Fae are immortal beings who are beautiful and magical and have nothing to do with humans.

[00:08:33] And Feyre kills, more or less by accident, a fae in the form of a wolf and as punishment has to leave her home and her family and move to Prythian, where she lives at the Spring Court.

[00:08:48] With one of the seven High Lords, his name is Tamlin, or Tamlin.

[00:08:53] And Tamlin is the Lord of Spring in this realm.

[00:08:57] There are seven heights in the realm, but that's not relevant to our story right now.

[00:09:03] There are simply seven realms that are in Prythian.

[00:09:05] And the important thing is that humans and fae hate each other because there was a war about 100 billion years ago where humans fought fae.

[00:09:14] And that's why the realm is always totally divided between the realm of the humans and the realm of the Fae, whereby the humans have a deep rejection of the Fae.

[00:09:22] Feyre hates all fae because of this hatred, which she has had naturalized since childhood, and as a result Tamlin does too.

[00:09:32] But spoiler, it's a romantic, it's a novel, so she falls in love with Tamlin in the course of the first volume and he falls in love with her.

[00:09:40] And then the problem is that Prythian has been taken over by a tyrannical ruler, for 50 years or something.

[00:09:50] And her name is Amarantha and she wants Tamlin for herself.

[00:09:54] And Feyre then has to compete in three trials, so to speak, to prove her love for Tamlin and at the same time save the whole Prythian with her 19 years.

[00:10:06] Shelly: Can I interject for a second? - Jaci: Yes.

[00:10:08] Shelly: That totally reminded me of the Hunger Games.

[00:10:11] Jaci: Really? Shelly: Yeah, totally.

[00:10:12] That really got me into the vibe with this worm that she was fighting and this arena and other people are watching.

[00:10:20] Jaci: Okay, yeah, okay. I understand a little bit.

[00:10:23] Shelly: So if you like the Hunger Games, I think that's something for you too.

[00:10:28] Jaci: But then I don't think it's brutal enough.

[00:10:30] It's just a fantasy series and Hunger Games is just sci-fi.

[00:10:34] Shelly: Yeah, right.

[00:10:35] Jaci: But she's fighting for her life and dying every second almost all the time.

[00:10:40] And because she's almost dying all the time, she makes a deal with the Highlord of the Night, Rhysand.

[00:10:49] Let's let that roll off the tongue for a second. Rhysand.

[00:10:51] [Shelly sighs theatrically: "Lovely."]

[00:10:53] Jaci: Who is also one of the seven Highlords, the most powerful one I might add.

[00:10:58] And he helps Feyre defeat Amarantha, but Feyre dies in the process.

[00:11:03] And with the magic of the seven Highlords, she is brought back to life, but as a Fae.

[00:11:09] So she is no longer human.

[00:11:11] And that's where the first volume ends.

[00:11:14] In the second volume, Feyre tries to come to terms with all her dramatic experiences.

[00:11:19] And then she is suddenly engaged to Tamlin, who has just been released after Amarantha.

[00:11:23] And she realizes that her new fae body has, well, she doesn't feel at home anymore.

[00:11:30] She suddenly has powers she doesn't know about.

[00:11:32] And at the same time Tamlin tries to lock her up and protect her completely, because now she has a target on her back.

[00:11:40] Because now she's become the savior of all of Prythian at once.

[00:11:43] And before the wedding can take place, Feyre actually, during the wedding, she walks down the aisle.

[00:11:51] And that's when she has a nervous breakdown.

[00:11:53] And that's when Rhysand, the Highlord of the Night, rescues her from the wedding and brings her to his court.

[00:12:00] Where Feyre then learns to deal with her powers and her life as a fae.

[00:12:06] And returns to Tamlin again and again, but becomes more and more estranged from him.

[00:12:11] And then finally he totally oppresses her and even locks her up in the house.

[00:12:16] Which Rhysand then frees her from.

[00:12:19] And then Feyre's relationship with Tamlin is actually over.

[00:12:23] And she just lives with Rhysand at his court.

[00:12:27] And then there's a friendship between the two of them while they train their skills.

[00:12:32] And they also come to realize that they both have the same goals for the future of Prythian and the human realm and are working towards a common goal, so to speak.

[00:12:41] And in that collaboration, they come to realize, so Feyre realizes how drawn she is to Rhysand.

[00:12:48] And then realizes much too late in the novel that he is her soulmate, her "mate".

[00:12:56] And the second part ends with this new relationship that they enter into and tragic political events in which Feyre's sisters, who are actually both human beings, are suddenly developed again.

[00:13:08] And there is this hostile kingdom of Hybern.

[00:13:13] And they sort of start a fight with Prythian and kidnap Feyre's sisters.

[00:13:18] And then, through magical and very profound events that we won't go into now, they also become Fae, just like the Feyre.

[00:13:26] In the third volume, there is this war that begins in the second.

[00:13:30] In the third volume, it's kind of fought and spoiler: they win. Yay! [both laugh]

[00:13:35] And then the novella is, well, the novella is what Shelly said, which could be an email.

[00:13:42] In the novella you experience a few short weeks after the war, in which the country and our characters recover from the war and have a really nice party.

[00:13:55] And it's really great.

[00:13:57] And I don't know what Shelly has against it.

[00:13:59] But everyone is finally fine.

[00:14:01] Everybody's alive.

[00:14:02] Shelly: I don't mind. I'm just saying ...

[00:14:04] Jaci: It's great.

[00:14:06] Shelly: That could have been an extra chapter.

[00:14:08] Jaci: No.

[00:14:09] Shelly: Okay.

[00:14:10] Jaci: The fourth volume is about Feyre's sister Nesta and how she deals with her traumas about the war and becoming a fae.

[00:14:21] And then, like Feyre in the second part, she goes through a process of self-discovery and things like that.

[00:14:28] So, now we have ... that was relatively short.

[00:14:30] Shelly: Yeah ...

[00:14:31] Well summarized.

[00:14:32] I know my way around. [both laugh]

[00:14:33] Exactly.

[00:14:34] We're going to talk about the characters Feyre and Nesta mainly today, but also Rhysand, Tamlin and some names that will come up are Elain, the third sister, and Cassian and Azriel, Rhysand's two best friends, so to speak.

[00:14:53] And we're going to talk mainly about the two, I'll call them the two female leads that the novels focus on, Feyre and Nesta and their developmental processes. Very briefly about Tamlin and Feyre's toxic relationship and toxic relationships in general, in the YA genre, why they're so popular and what makes them so special.

[00:15:14] And lastly, if we have time, I'd like to talk about how the reading experience is different if you grow up with the characters now, like I did, or if you just read it later.

[00:15:26] Without further ado, let's get started. [both laugh softly]

[00:15:30] Jaci: Let's get to Feyre and her development first. Shelly, how has Feyre changed for you over the course of the novels? So what are some key points where you've noticed a big jump in her development?

[00:15:45] Shelly: Well, in the beginning I saw her as very, very young. So as you just explained before, she was 19 in the first volume, I seem to have missed that.

[00:15:56] I didn't realize that. I actually would have guessed she was younger. But I think that's also because the author wanted to make it clear somehow when she's a human and when she becomes a fae.

[00:16:09] Because as soon as this transformation happened, I perceived her as much more mature. So she was, like, making this deal and coming to the Court of Spring while still Prythian,

[00:16:24] She was very innocent and very helpless and had to put up with it all, more or less.

[00:16:35] But you could tell that she had a pretty strong will on the other side as well and was constantly trying to escape and get back to the mortal realm, to her family.

[00:16:48] You could really see her character traits, the strong ones, that really defined her after the transformation.

[00:16:58] Jaci: You also have to say, at the beginning of the first part, she is the youngest of the three sisters and the first scene is how she

[00:17:10] sitting in the forest, in winter in the forest, waiting for some kind of deer or

[00:17:13] some kind of game goes by, that they have dinner, so to speak. And she is

[00:17:18] the sole provider for the family, her father can't work because of an injury

[00:17:21] can no longer work and she has to take care of everyone and everyone treats her [00:17:25] badly

[00:17:25] badly. And that's the paradox at the beginning, because she seems so strong

[00:17:29] seems so strong and so independent, but somehow totally naive at the beginning and

[00:17:34] very childlike, which I blame on the fact that she grew up too early

[00:17:38] that she lost her mother at an early age and then she was always

[00:17:43] responsible for everyone. But she's still independent, but I understand

[00:17:47] exactly what you're saying, she doesn't seem like she's 19 at the beginning

[00:17:51] be 16, 17 or something like that and I also think that she's already

[00:17:55] even before her transformation, when she falls in love with Tamlin, so to speak

[00:18:01] she's already growing because she's kind of becoming more confident and more of a

[00:18:06] life somehow and it's very organic also their relationship

[00:18:11] with each other somehow, that they're both growing into each other somehow it seems to me,

[00:18:15] that they both kind of overcome their hatred for each other, so

[00:18:18] Enemies-to-Lovers actually, but somehow really well executed.

[00:18:23] Shelly: It was very natural, it wasn't so blatant, that has to happen now

[00:18:28] happen, but it was so fluid - it was so fluid. So I totally took it from them

[00:18:33] in the first novel. "Feyre and Tamlin, that's it."

[00:18:36] Jaci: Yeah, exactly. So you really believe in their love and then I just think

[00:18:41] also the trials of Amarantha, that she's kind of taking the seriousness of life

[00:18:47] somehow, even though she's been through so much before that

[00:18:50] before that, but then the moments when she suddenly realizes, okay, I'm in it

[00:18:54] I was actually fine before and now I have to fight this worm,

[00:18:58] that's killing me, it was actually fine before and this

[00:19:02] despair that she feels, I think you can also understand that and

[00:19:06] all her feelings. I think it's very transparent for the reader and also her

[00:19:11] transformation, this shock that she feels, this ... she's happy on the one hand

[00:19:16] to be alive, but on the other hand she actually hates the fae and

[00:19:19] never really wanted to have anything to do with them in her life and suddenly she is

[00:19:23] Fae herself, so that with her downward spiral this then at the beginning of the

[00:19:29] second part, I think it's quite well executed. So this

[00:19:34] development to "I'm human, I have to live with them, I can deal with them,

[00:19:37] am in love with one, okay", but then again this setback, so to speak, to "now I am

[00:19:43] kind of a fae myself", so I felt that quite well too. - Shelly: It was just like

[00:19:49] this finality or, that hit her so hard that now she's really

[00:19:53] finished with her human life and that she can't go back?

[00:19:57] I think that was also the case ... - Jaci: That she's basically arrived in Prythian for good now and

[00:20:02] can never go back to the human realm. And in the same as in the first

[00:20:07] part, how I perceived this organic relationship between Tamlin and Feyre was kind of

[00:20:11] perceived, then I also perceived the development between Rhysand and Feyre

[00:20:15] felt that the very really just at first she doesn't really like and he

[00:20:21] but still helps her all the time and that even this first friends

[00:20:26] become friends and allies somehow, without there being anything sexual or

[00:20:32] anything romantic. It's a whole deep trust that they build up,

[00:20:36] because they just know, okay, Feyre has suffered under Amarantha and the Rhysand was

[00:20:42] but then he was also her slave for 50 years and he also suffered extremely and that

[00:20:47] connects the two of them and they discover together how strong they are

[00:20:51] and how beautiful the world is, so to speak, and that it's worth it to continue

[00:20:56] and I found the book really great with their

[00:21:00] development, how she then gets out of this hole, but without having to

[00:21:04] that a man saves her in a romantic sense, but that she simply

[00:21:10] friendships, so Rhysand and his group above all, and that she can

[00:21:16] finding herself again, despite her transformation. - Shelly: Yes, especially Rhysand has

[00:21:22] really gave her all the freedom then, so he didn't

[00:21:27] locked her up, didn't underestimate her, trusted her to do a lot on her own and

[00:21:33] that's what she did at that moment, when she left Tamlin,

[00:21:38] who had locked her up like that, who had underpinned her like that, that's what she needed and that's where

[00:21:44] really realized the two of them, they understand each other, they can understand each other

[00:21:49] give each other what they need and you didn't realize that they were actually

[00:21:55] were actually soul mates. Can we go a little bit into this

[00:21:57] "mating bond" a little bit? - Jaci: Gladly, yes, gladly. Exactly, so Sarah J. Maas, the author, is

[00:22:02] known for the fact that she uses this concept of the

[00:22:07] soulmates in each of her series and that's especially true of the Fae, that the idea is,

[00:22:12] that everyone or that many Fae have a counterpart, so to speak, this "mate", where

[00:22:18] souls call each other, I don't know how, or that

[00:22:22] there's just a very deep connection ... - Shelly: An invisible bond, so to speak, which then

[00:22:28] to each other and they can physically feel this bond.

[00:22:32] Jaci: Exactly and in most cases they're great love stories

[00:22:37] like Feyre and Rhysand, where there's just friendship from the beginning and just

[00:22:42] trust and attraction, there's a lot of chemistry between the two of them

[00:22:47] both of them, but then there are also soul connections that don't work,

[00:22:52] where two people are connected who simply don't fit together.

[00:22:56] That was the case with Rhysand's parents, for example, that's a very engaging thing

[00:23:02] actually. But I think that with the two of them, it wasn't the only thing from the beginning

[00:23:07] only thing that connected them, but first of all it was very important for me

[00:23:11] this base, that's always very important to me with novels and with

[00:23:15] romantic relationships, that there is a carpet pad on which something can happen

[00:23:19] can happen and then the feelings come, because this "I see you and I love you

[00:23:23] immediately" I always find it very strange and with these two it was just this

[00:23:29] deep trust first and then it was recognized - or then the Feyre recognized

[00:23:33] "oh, okay, he's my soulmate". - Shelly: Whereas Rhysand already knew that.

[00:23:38] Jaci: Exactly, so Rhysand knew from the moment Feyre became a fae, but he

[00:23:45] just didn't say it, so he was just there for her in a very neutral way and he

[00:23:49] even at the beginning, when Tamlin and Feyre were still together, he had this

[00:23:53] relationship, simply because he wanted the best for Feyre.

[00:23:57] Shelly: It's actually quite similar with Nesta, with the sister of the

[00:24:01] Feyre's sister, she also had very traumatic experiences, because of the

[00:24:07] unwanted transformation into a fae and the resulting change of life, so to speak.

[00:24:12] What was it like with her and Cassian then? It's similar.

[00:24:17] Jaci: Exactly, so I think he suspected it for a while and knew it for a while, but

[00:24:22] he also gave her the freedom to decide for herself, so to speak, because he simply

[00:24:28] also knew that a lot of life decisions had been made for her recently

[00:24:31] have been made for her and what I think is really good about Cassian and

[00:24:36] Nesta and also with Rhysand and Feyre: the men sort of teach the woman

[00:24:41] to live independently and also to defend themselves, because Tamlin, for example

[00:24:47] example, wanted to protect Feyre and locked her up and the other men

[00:24:50] also want to protect their women, but teach them how to defend themselves

[00:24:55] how to defend themselves and protect themselves and Cassian and

[00:24:59] Nesta, I think there's more chemistry right from the start, like Feyre and Rhysand,

[00:25:03] but it's also very slow and shy getting to know each other for

[00:25:11] the Nesta especially this building of trust, which is very important that

[00:25:15] she can also process her trauma and then also, it doesn't work then either

[00:25:21] mainly about the fact that everything is back to normal in her life because

[00:25:25] she met a man and that's what I think Sarah J. Maas does

[00:25:31] actually quite good in this series, that it's not just about love, that it's about

[00:25:35] so much more to life. - Shelly: But it's about self-discovery and that the

[00:25:41] female characters can trust themselves more, find the strength

[00:25:46] find the strength to defend themselves, know who they are then and also as a

[00:25:53] heroines then. - Jaci: Exactly and I just mean the development that the

[00:25:59] characters go through, Feyre as a very innocent, naive, 19-year-old somehow

[00:26:04] and then to this mistress actually, who makes good decisions, but

[00:26:09] still learning and can defend herself and stand up for herself in life and

[00:26:13] let's be honest, Nesta, I hated her in the first books [Shelly: Yeah, so did I.] so

[00:26:17] she was such a prickly person and really horrible to Feyre all the time,

[00:26:23] just put her down, never did anything and in her

[00:26:28] novel, how you get to know her and how she herself realizes what a

[00:26:32] person she is, but also the explanations are given as to why she is like that,

[00:26:36] the way she is. That also totally flashed me and after the last book

[00:26:40] where I thought to myself, okay, she's actually a good character, so she's

[00:26:43] a really strong character, so much more than just this bad person that

[00:26:47] you've always seen in her. - Shelly: I totally agree with you on that, so this book has so

[00:26:51] a lot of insights and I think it's also highly psychological in parts.

[00:26:57] Jaci: Yeah. - Shelly: It's also definitely not a book that

[00:27:02] I would recommend to younger readers right now. It's good that it's the last

[00:27:06] book in the series if you've just read the whole, the whole background just

[00:27:12] already read and understand it better, but yeah, I think it's totally

[00:27:18] well executed, totally beautifully written and I was just so excited about the

[00:27:23] whole time. I think it's definitely my second favorite book because the

[00:27:29] second part is unbeatable, it's just great [Jaci laughs softly] but the fifth one is so great too.

[00:27:34] Jaci: Yes, it's very important that you say that you didn't write the last book for

[00:27:39] younger ones, because that's also the exciting thing about the book series, which is

[00:27:43] just like I said before, it started out as YA, as Young Adult Literature

[00:27:47] and then, because of the last book and the increasing,

[00:27:52] dramatic themes and also the sexual content

[00:27:56] the last book was then labeled as adult. So it is

[00:28:00] actually the first four volumes are seen as YA, but then the last one as

[00:28:04] adult literature and I think that's what you're talking about for this process,

[00:28:11] that we said, that you grow up with the books, because I just think that with

[00:28:15] 16/17 reading and now I'm 24 and I'm completely different in my

[00:28:20] life, I've experienced completely different things and I've always loved the books

[00:28:23] still give me exactly what I want to read, what I have experienced, what

[00:28:28] I can process for myself and which also somehow reflects growing up

[00:28:33] reflected. - Shelly: You still had to wait for some of the books to come out

[00:28:39] come out, right? - Jaci: Yes! - Shelly: I mean, you have to say, the series is not complete, there's still

[00:28:44] one more book, but you don't know when it's coming out.

[00:28:47] Jaci: The author is still writing the last one or the next one

[00:28:51] Volume, I think there are two more books planned. - Shelly: Two more?! [draws in a sharp breath]. -jaci: Just because it's now

[00:28:55] the first three or four books have been about Feyre.

[00:28:58] Now it's about Nesta, they all ask, then the next book is about the Elain, the

[00:29:02] third sister, which everyone, well I'm not thrilled about it because I see her

[00:29:06] as an extremely boring character, but I trust Sarah J. Maas to write

[00:29:11] and Nesta sold us on her as a good character and then we just let her

[00:29:15] process and see her completely differently now, that she can do the same with Elain

[00:29:18] can do that. - Shelly: Yeah, I think so too. Especially because in the last tape

[00:29:23] last volume for now, in the fifth part, that was teased with Elain

[00:29:26] and Azriel, Rhysand and Cassian's third friend. -jaci: Exactly and above all

[00:29:34] because there's also a love triangle brewing again, because Elain is just

[00:29:39] the third sister, is soulmates with Lucien, Tamlin's ex-best friend.

[00:29:46] So they're "mates", the two of them, but Elain hasn't accepted the bond yet and

[00:29:52] she's kind of hooking up with Azriel and that's why it's such an exciting thing

[00:29:55] exciting dynamic, which is good material for another novel

[00:30:00] would make for another novel. But we're curious. - Shelly: Yes, let's come back to the topic for a moment

[00:30:06] toxic relationships in young adult fiction in particular and why it's so

[00:30:13] glamorized and why it works so well in this genre.

[00:30:19] Jaci: Exactly, because so the relationship between Tamlin and Feyre is highly

[00:30:25] toxic, but you only get to that in the second part and I also have to

[00:30:30] confess: I've read the books several times and I've always

[00:30:35] but in the first part it happens to me that I fall in love with Tamlin. So every time

[00:30:38] I fall for him again and I'm like that, but it's great, although then I just

[00:30:43] all the toxic elements when I reread it, but also in the first

[00:30:47] part, of course, and then I'm of the opinion that it works well

[00:30:51] works well because you kind of ignore it at the beginning and then it's

[00:30:55] it's just a nice love story and then when it gets to this obviously

[00:30:59] toxic, then you realize it and you're like "oops" and then of course you find it

[00:31:03] hopefully not great. But what I think makes the trope is that every

[00:31:08] toxic relationship in most novels then finds a happy ending with

[00:31:14] a new person who is much, much better than the old person. That is

[00:31:18] now with Feyre and Tamlin the toxic relationship breaks up

[00:31:23] and Feyre learns to deal with it, so to speak, learns to process it, then finds

[00:31:27] Rhysand and then has a happy ending. But of course that also happens with -

[00:31:30] Colleen Hoover comes to mind, for example, with "It Ends With U", where the

[00:31:35] protagonist is in a toxic relationship and that's already the main part

[00:31:40] of the novel, but it's really just about her coming to terms with it

[00:31:44] coming to terms with it and how she copes with it and that then a happy ending

[00:31:48] with a new person and I think that this, that this is it,

[00:31:54] what makes this trope so popular, this development of the characters themselves afterwards

[00:32:00] and the possibility of another happy ending. - Shelly: So that you're kind of left out because of the

[00:32:05] happy ending, you just accept what came before it. You look past it because it's

[00:32:12] ended well anyway. - Jaci: Yeah, it's like Enemies to Lovers. Nobody reads

[00:32:17] it for the Enemies part, everyone reads it so they can have this now lovers afterward

[00:32:21] and they just accept the Enemies because they know that after that comes the

[00:32:25] love affair. - Shelly: Yeah, I think that's quite

[00:32:29] coherent [laughs]. - Jaci: That was my thought about toxic relationships [laughs]. Yeah, but that's what I think

[00:32:34] has also worked well in the series and yes, we're just

[00:32:38] happy that Feyre has learned and grown. Then we want to

[00:32:42] thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.

[00:32:47] We hope we've motivated those who haven't read it yet to do so,

[00:32:50] to read "ACOTAR". - Shelly: If you want to do that and read it in German, you can do so in the

[00:32:55] public library. We have both the books and the e-books in

[00:33:00] German. We also have all the other book series by Sarah J. Maas.

[00:33:03] If we've now persuaded everyone to read everything, like the

[00:33:07] dear Shelly has now started Throne of Glass. - Shelly: Yeah. [Jaci laughs]. Am on the second

[00:33:10] book. - Jaci: Then thank you Shelly for talking to me about my love book series

[00:33:13] for talking to me about my love book series. - Shelly: Oh, I'd love to. - Jaci: It's been a pleasure. - Shelly: Any questions, requests,

[00:33:17] suggestions, please send them to post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at or on

[00:33:23] Instagram: stadtbibliothek.innsbruck. Just send a DM, a comment.

[00:33:28] A follow. - Jaci: We look forward to hearing your thoughts on "ACOTAR". - Shelly: And follow us

[00:33:35] on Spotify or other channels where you listen to our podcast. - Jaci: Thank you very much.

[00:33:40] Ciao!

[00:33:42] [Outro music]

[00:34:04] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of the

[00:34:10] of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] Boris: Hello and welcome back to the "Short and sweet" preface.

[00:00:27] Today with Liliana Dagostin and my name is Boris Schön.

[00:00:32] Yes, Lili, nice to have you here.

[00:00:35] Lili: Thank you Boris for the invitation.

[00:00:37] Boris: Nice to meet you.

[00:00:38] First of all, I would like you to introduce yourself a little bit.

[00:00:41] Lili: So my name is Liliana Dagostin.

[00:00:45] But I'm called Lili and I'm also happy about this short form, which is very dear to me.

[00:00:50] I work for the Austrian Alpine Association, where I head the Spatial Planning and Nature Conservation Department. For some time now.

[00:00:56] For 12 years. I'm from Innsbruck by choice, originally from South Tyrol,

[00:01:02] but I've been stuck in Innsbruck for a very long time after my studies, here, as they say.

[00:01:09] Boris: You were on stage with us at the book presentation of the illustrated book on the Platzertal.

[00:01:15] As a representative of the Alpine Club for the subsequent discussion.

[00:01:19] I would also like to talk to you today about the Alpine Club.

[00:01:27] What are the tasks and respectively,

[00:01:32] What are your responsibilities within the Alpine Club in particular?

[00:01:36] Lili: Maybe for the listeners,

[00:01:39] very briefly again the reference to it:

[00:01:42] Well, I work for the main association of the Austrian Alpine Club.

[00:01:47] We are based near the Tivoli, in Olympiastrasse, that's where our headquarters are.

[00:01:54] Many of you probably know the Innsbruck section in Meinhardtstraße,

[00:01:59] so that's our largest section in Tyrol.

[00:02:03] The Alpine Club works like this, we have 193 sections spread all over Austria,

[00:02:10] and then there's the headquarters, the central office, and that's where I work.

[00:02:15] There are various departments and central offices in our company,

[00:02:20] and one sub-area, that of alpine spatial planning and nature conservation, for which I am responsible together with my colleagues.

[00:02:29] What are our responsibilities?

[00:02:31] First and foremost, of course, we are responsible for training our officials.

[00:02:36] Every section in the Alpine Club also has a person who is responsible for nature conservation.

[00:02:41] Of course, we try to train them so that they have the right tools in their hands,

[00:02:46] to carry out this important activity in the association.

[00:02:50] Nature conservation is a statutory mandate in the Alpine Club.

[00:02:53] But of course we also have some projects, such as a very nice one,

[00:02:58] where we also work together with the city of Innsbruck, a mountain forest project, a volunteer project,

[00:03:03] so for all people who would like to take a week of their time to work in nature

[00:03:10] and simply dedicate themselves to the mountain forest, the protective forest that we have here in Innsbruck.

[00:03:15] But of course, we also have projects that are aimed at getting involved in the natural environment,

[00:03:21] that we are not alone, that we move in a way that is compatible with nature.

[00:03:24] Which of course, from our point of view, represents the synthesis of all our efforts in the field of Alpine spatial planning,

[00:03:31] is the mountaineering villages project.

[00:03:33] This is not an invention of Lili Dagostin, it was Peter Haßlacher, the [unintelligible] of alpine spatial planning,

[00:03:40] who, together with Roland Kals, considered which places still exist in the Alpine region,

[00:03:46] where you can climb mountains like you used to.

[00:03:48] And for us, this project just fits in wonderfully, really as a continuation of all the efforts we've made.

[00:03:56] They are now also easily accessible for Innsbruck residents.

[00:04:00] We do have some in the Wipptal valley as far as the Gschnitztal valley.

[00:04:05] Of course we have the Sellraintal, we have Vent.

[00:04:08] So there are also some that can be reached from here, but of course they are spread throughout Austria and now throughout the entire Alpine region.

[00:04:16] So it's an original place that has always remained a bit off the beaten track in terms of tourism development,

[00:04:25] where it has always been about higher, faster and further, to a somewhat more tranquil alpine tourism.

[00:04:32] And that is, of course, a matter close to our hearts.

[00:04:35] That, as I said, is what everyone is trying to achieve, the philosophy of the Alpine Association on Alpine spatial development,

[00:04:43] which is also in harmony with nature.

[00:04:47] And the point is the actual mountaineering village.

[00:04:50] These are the topics that we have to accompany in the department and they are the positive topics.

[00:04:59] But of course we also have a lot of other more conflictual issues, such as Alpine spatial planning,

[00:05:07] when it comes to defining ski area boundaries, for example, and questioning the "more and more and bigger and higher and further and further".

[00:05:17] Of course, we're very happy to do that and I think it's also very convincing,

[00:05:23] That is of course also the reason why the Alpine Association is dedicated to nature conservation and how it came to be included in the statutes.

[00:05:31] So it was already about that at a very early stage over 100 years ago,

[00:05:35] whether there wasn't enough development, transportation, skiing, tourism in the first place.

[00:05:45] Boris: Over 100 years ago already.

[00:05:46] Lili: Over 100 years ago. Transportation, tourism and also energy.

[00:05:52] And that's also the reason why I was your guest the other day.

[00:05:57] Boris: In other words, this whole area of spatial planning is, so to speak, how can you imagine it,

[00:06:03] do you have a plan where you look at it, where are the boundaries already set or where would you draw boundaries

[00:06:09] or how can you ... As a layman, I can't really imagine what that means.

[00:06:14] Lili: So of course you always work with a plan and depending on which topic we're tackling,

[00:06:20] we look at which areas are favorable, which are less favorable.

[00:06:26] For the Alpine Association, whose responsibility basically begins above the tree line,

[00:06:32] it is of course always the use of the alpine region and there it is of course about energy development, for example.

[00:06:41] Now, for example, we are concerned with the question of where wind power can be used and where not.

[00:06:49] From our point of view, it is of course the case that in the Alpine region, due to the many problems, we believe that wind power should be used,

[00:06:57] that go hand in hand with this closure or with this use, a very cautious approach should be taken.

[00:07:03] So the attitude should be a very cautious one.

[00:07:06] But we also expect ourselves to be self-critical

[00:07:11] and naturally question our own need for resources,

[00:07:16] which is why it's a complex situation, of course, which then leads to intensive discussions within the association,

[00:07:23] but of course also with interest groups outside the association.

[00:07:28] Boris: I recently stumbled across the fact that we have this concept of freedom of movement.

[00:07:33] It doesn't seem to be something exclusive in Austria, but rather a special situation.

[00:07:38] Not all countries or even all countries in Europe have it.

[00:07:42] Can you explain to us a little bit what the issue is?

[00:07:46] Lili: I'd love to, and thanks for pointing that out, because I'd actually forgotten about that area.

[00:07:51] Although it's actually a big part of what we do. What is this freedom of movement?

[00:07:57] Well, in a nutshell, freedom of movement means that we can move around in certain areas

[00:08:04] for recreational purposes.

[00:08:08] This primarily includes the free choice of route, which means I decide where I go

[00:08:14] and then there is also the right of way, for example if it is for natural history reasons,

[00:08:20] for military or hunting reasons, for example, there is a need to stay on paths,

[00:08:26] but it's really a balancing act that we're always involved in.

[00:08:31] This is also part of the Alpine spatial planning that we mentioned earlier.

[00:08:35] So it's about trying to allow different uses in one and the same space.

[00:08:44] The best example and also the most important example that we have in Austria is the Forest Act.

[00:08:50] At a very early stage, in 1975, at the instigation of Bruno Kreisky, everyone was allowed to use the forest,

[00:08:59] so within the scope of the Forest Act, in short in the forest, the right to move around for recreational purposes was established.

[00:09:06] Many uses are not covered by this, for example horse riding, cycling,

[00:09:11] but ski touring, for example, as well as climbing or, in general, trespassing,

[00:09:19] Everyone is free to do so, free of charge, for recreational purposes.

[00:09:25] And if we want to see it that way, then this common space is accessible to everyone,

[00:09:32] so that they can find strength and

[00:09:34] recreation and that is also the mission of the Alpine Club to stand up for this possibility.

[00:09:39] That starts with nature conservation, with the preservation of landscapes and habitats and then actually changes to the maintenance of paths,

[00:09:48] because we are traveling in an area that does not belong to us alone, where we also want to travel respectfully.

[00:09:53] Boris: We're just heading towards spring and the hiking season is already on the horizon, so to speak.

[00:10:01] Now my question is, if you have the right to move, in the best case you also have self-imposed obligations to protect nature, to treat it respectfully.

[00:10:11] Do you have any tips or tricks on the subject of sustainable hiking or resource-conserving use in the mountains?

[00:10:21] Lili: Very nice question, thank you for that. We actually see it the same way. The first approach to resource-conserving behavior is that in winters like these, when there is little snow or no snow at all,

[00:10:41] not necessarily try to find something where you can still use the winter sports equipment, but simply go up the mountain with mountain boots.

[00:10:53] So that's the first thing. The second question we always have, of course, is mobility.

[00:11:00] Innsbruck is blessed, of course. We have beautiful mountains all around us, which are also easy to reach.

[00:11:06] We have a very well-developed public transport network, but not all of them are in this favorable location.

[00:11:12] But we can still start with mobility, for example, when it comes to using resources sparingly.

[00:11:19] We all know that our personal mobility is the biggest CO2 driver in our behavior when it comes to recreation [unintelligible].

[00:11:27] In other words, we invite you to simply ask yourself the question, not where do I want to go, but where do I want to get to, based on the options I have locally, based on public accessibility.

[00:11:42] What we always invite people to do is to develop an awareness of natural spaces and that we are not alone in natural spaces.

[00:11:50] We have summarized a lot of recommendations for this in a campaign called "Respect on the Mountain", where we also try to educate people and say that wild animals also have their needs.

[00:12:05] We are in an area that we share with wild animals. It's not right that wild animals are pushed into the background.

[00:12:14] But it's also extremely important for us humans that we protect a protective forest, that we recognize that a protective forest on site protects us in our settlements.

[00:12:26] There are also aspects that we try to introduce, always as a recommendation, never as a ban.

[00:12:32] We assume that people will act in a much more self-determined way if they are invited to do so, if they try to understand, instead of being told how to behave.

[00:12:47] Maybe one more point about freedom of movement. I was just talking earlier about the area of the forest, so the scope of the pre-law.

[00:12:55] We naturally assume that we are also allowed to enter alpine wasteland, alpine terrain, which is of course immensely important for the Alpine Association.

[00:13:03] Basically, there are two federal states, Tyrol and Lower Austria, which also have areas relevant for mountaineers that do not have their own law regulating this free accessibility.

[00:13:18] In other federal states, we've had it since the 1920s.

[00:13:23] Boris: Now I have a small supplementary question.

[00:13:26] When you say that it should be resource-saving how you get up the mountain in the first place, then I have the example from my circle of friends again and again that people say, I bought an e-bike, I can easily cover 50, 70 kilometers until I get to where I want to go up the mountain.

[00:13:46] Then, of course, I don't stop at the bottom, so to speak, but ride up the mountain as far as I can on the e-bike.

[00:13:53] Then I hike to the summit or similar scenarios, also in the sense of this recreational sport.

[00:13:59] Just like in Tyrol, where you have to get up the mountain quickly at the end of the day or on Saturday morning before you go to family dinner.

[00:14:08] The "must" is not meant to be negative, but ... It's a great thing.

[00:14:13] Now my question is that the number of cyclists on the mountain is simply increasing.

[00:14:19] How do you see that on the part of the Alpine Club? Or are there regulations or should there be more?

[00:14:28] Is voluntary behavior the right way to go?

[00:14:32] Lili: What you're talking about, Boris, is really that aspect, that area in which the Alpine Association, as a large alpine association with a mountain sports mandate and a nature conservation mandate, of course also a youth and hut mandate, but a mountain sports and nature conservation mandate, realizes that it has two souls in its breast.

[00:14:52] That starts with mountain biking and ends with e-mountain biking. Two or three years ago, there was a lengthy internal dispute within the association, which ultimately led to us saying in the Alpine Club that we are still an association that stands up for mountain sports that involve movement under one's own power.

[00:15:17] That means we say yes to mountain biking, but we don't say a complete yes to e-mountain biking, because we say the movement should be under your own power.

[00:15:28] What we do is that people who want to learn how to use a mountain bike properly can come to us and we don't exclude those who come with an e-mountain bike, because that also needs to be learned, even if it's about damage to the trail, for example, even if it's about impairments, we don't exclude them, but we don't actively promote them.

[00:15:54] That was the Solomonic solution we found, but basically the Alpine Club stands for movement under its own steam.

[00:16:02] And it doesn't really matter to us whether a motor-assisted aid has a combustion engine or an electric motor.

[00:16:12] Boris: Yes, Lili, thank you very much for this, in my opinion, very exciting insight into your field of work, but also the activities of the Alpine Club.

[00:16:20] And I think it's a very complex and multi-layered subject that you have to deal with.

[00:16:27] Lili: We rarely get bored.

[00:16:29] Boris: [laughs] I think so, yes.

[00:16:30] Finally, as always with our guests, I would also ask you to give a literature tip for our listeners.

[00:16:37] Lili: I would love to.

[00:16:38] I would actually almost like to share a literature tip for the listeners of this podcast on my own behalf.

[00:16:48] We recently presented a book, an illustrated book about the Platzertal, which was of course also enriched with content, i.e. technical but very personal descriptions by nature photographer Sebastian Frölich.

[00:17:07] And this illustrated book is intended to show what a treasure the Platzertal represents, for those who don't know, the Platzertal could disappear behind a dam that Tyrolean hydropower is planning to build in order to generate electricity from renewable energy, i.e. to build a hydropower plant there.

[00:17:28] So the Platzertal could face a similar fate to the Längental, which is currently being built behind the Kühtai, being redesigned.

[00:17:38] And then, of course, I have a personal book that is very close to my heart, which I also like to give away.

[00:17:45] I really like giving books as gifts, by the way, but one that I really like to give away and that I also know is here in the city library, not at the moment,

[00:17:53] It's been lent out. It's a book by Marco Balzano, an Italian writer who actually writes about South Tyrol, although he's not a South Tyrolean, but I've rarely read such a sensitive book about the events in South Tyrol, which have also shaped the South Tyrolean population.

[00:18:14] That is, "Io resto qui" in Italian. So "I'm staying here". I can only highly, highly recommend reading it.

[00:18:25] Boris: Thank you very much for these two tips and thank you for the interview.

[00:18:31] Lili: Thank you for the invitation.

[00:18:33] [Outro music]

[00:18:56] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the city library

[00:00:26] Innsbruck. My name is Christina -

[00:00:28] Pia: And I'm Pia -

[00:00:29] Christina: and we're delighted to finally be back and start the podcast year with the podcasts you love so much

[00:00:38] stories of origin.

[00:00:41] Pia and I have each researched the genesis of a famous novel or work

[00:00:48] and surprise each other with it.

[00:00:50] And at the end you decide which origin story was more exciting.

[00:00:55] You can then simply vote on Instagram or write us an email at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at.

[00:01:05] It has to be said in advance that a lot has happened in the foreword.

[00:01:10] We have gained two new colleagues who are now permanently on the podcast.

[00:01:16] These are Shelly and Jaci, who spill the tea once a month in their teatime

[00:01:21] and keep you up to date on all literary developments from the World Wide Web.

[00:01:27] There have also been and will be many great guests again this year, who will be presenting us in the "Kurz

[00:01:34] and Painless with ..." by our colleague and event organizer Boris.

[00:01:41] This year's guests have already been the feminist artist Katharina Cibulka, known from the "Solange" project,

[00:01:47] Paul Scheibelhofer from the University of Innsbruck, who specializes in gender and masculinity research

[00:01:53], Eva Biringer, who published her super exciting book "Unversehrt: Frauen und Schmerz"

[00:01:59] in the city library and which is currently on everyone's lips, the book,

[00:02:05] and the topic, as well as the popular FM4 presenter Christian Fuchs,

[00:02:10] who I'm sure many of you know from the cult show "House of Pain".

[00:02:14] You can hear that we've got a lot going on in the foreword.

[00:02:17] Pia and I have also come up with something special this year.

[00:02:21] In addition to the popular origin stories, we're going back to our roots and talking about - sure - novels.

[00:02:28] But not just any novels.

[00:02:30] You can look forward to book reviews by young Austrian authors.

[00:02:34] Soon our reviews of the humorous novel will go on air

[00:02:38] "Nincshof" by Johanna Sebauer (keyword: Irrziegen),

[00:02:43] and the wonderfully poisonous "Arsenic" by Maria Hofer.

[00:02:47] So let yourself be surprised and inspired.

[00:02:51] Okay, here we go Pia with the origin stories.

[00:02:55] Who's starting today?

[00:02:58] Pia: I don't know.

[00:02:59] I can't remember who started it last time and who finished it last time.

[00:03:04] Christina: What do we do now?

[00:03:06] Pia: Rock, paper, scissors?

[00:03:07] Christina: Okay, one or three?

[00:03:10] Pia: One, right?

[00:03:12] Christina: Okay. [both laugh]

[00:03:13] Wait.

[00:03:15] I have to think for a moment.

[00:03:16] [in unison] Rock, paper, scissors!

[00:03:19] Christina: Dang it. [both laugh] - Pia: So did I win now that I do at the end or at the beginning?

[00:03:23] That's the question now, isn't it?

[00:03:25] Christina: We haven't decided that yet.

[00:03:26] Pia: I'll start.

[00:03:27] Christina: Okay, so for all of you who haven't, you listeners out there haven't seen it now.

[00:03:32] You haven't seen it now.

[00:03:33] I had a stone, Pia had a piece of paper and hit me up with it.

[00:03:38] Pia: As a librarian, that has to be.

[00:03:41] Christina: What origin story did you bring us?

[00:03:43] Pia: I'm not telling that yet. [laughs]

[00:03:45] I'll just start telling you.

[00:03:47] I cheated a bit, but we'll find out later.

[00:03:53] So: Our car was born in Scotland on May 9, 1860.

[00:03:58] He grew up there as the ninth of ten children.

[00:04:02] He was a small child, but attracted attention at a young age with his storytelling talent

[00:04:08] at a young age.

[00:04:09] I hope we don't have the same one. [laughs]

[00:04:10] Christina: No, I've already done the math.

[00:04:12] Pia: Okay.

[00:04:13] Christina: Because the novel I'm talking about was published a few years later.

[00:04:17] Pia: Okay, now I'm curious.

[00:04:19] When my car was six years old, did his older brother David die?

[00:04:23] No, right?

[00:04:24] Christina: I don't know, I haven't done that much research into the story, into the family.

[00:04:28] Pia: Oh God. [both laugh]

[00:04:29] I hope we don't have the same thing.

[00:04:31] Christina: We're really curious.

[00:04:33] Pia: I have no idea what you have.

[00:04:35] Christina: We can't have the same one.

[00:04:36] We've already done that today ...

[00:04:37] Pia: Okay, yes then.

[00:04:38] When he was six years old, his older brother David died -

[00:04:41] -that was his mother's favorite -

[00:04:43] in a skating accident the day before his 14th birthday.

[00:04:46] The mother was devastated, of course, and the author -

[00:04:51] our author - tried to take David's place, even wearing his clothes

[00:04:56] and whistled the same way he did.

[00:04:59] Once entered the room and heard her say, "Is that you?"

[00:05:04] And then in 1896 he wrote in his mother's biography:

[00:05:09] "I thought she was talking to the dead boy and I said with a small, lonely

[00:05:13] voice, no, it's not him, it's just me."

[00:05:15] That was a powerful experience for him. Barrie's mother ...

[00:05:20] [horrified] Now I've given it away. [Christina laughs]

[00:05:22] Christina: I still don't know who it is.

[00:05:24] Pia: You still don't know who it is?

[00:05:26] Christina: [confused]: Perry?

[00:05:27] Pia: Shh! [Christina laughs]

[00:05:28] His mother found comfort in the idea that her dead son would remain a boy forever

[00:05:32] who could never grow up and leave her.

[00:05:35] And that's already a hint of where it's going for those who already know the story

[00:05:39] know the story.

[00:05:40] Christina: Ahhh, now I know.

[00:05:41] Pia: Yes.

[00:05:42] The author and his mother entertained each other with stories from their childhood

[00:05:46] and books like Robinson Crusoe.

[00:05:48] Christina: That explains so much of what's in this story.

[00:05:52] Pia: [laughs] Yeah.

[00:05:53] He was an avid reader and enjoyed so-called Penny Dreadfuls.

[00:05:57] If you don't know, it's the British equivalent of the dime novel, basically.

[00:06:02] Although the penny dreadful is a bit more generic.

[00:06:05] Penny Dreadfuls always have a gruesome or terrifying character.

[00:06:09] So in German you would say "Gruselheftchen" or something like that.

[00:06:13] He graduated from Edinburgh University with a degree in literature and started out as a journalist

[00:06:19] and eventually wrote his first story about his mother's childhood

[00:06:24] in a newspaper.

[00:06:25] And then he was allowed to make a series out of it.

[00:06:28] In other words, he had made the leap into writing.

[00:06:31] And then he also started writing plays.

[00:06:33] And with that we fly to the second star on the right and then straight on to the morning, because the

[00:06:38] person I'm talking about is JM Barrie and his character Peter Pan.

[00:06:43] The character of Peter Pan first appears in the novel "The Little White Bird"

[00:06:48] from the year 1902.

[00:06:50] That's actually an adult novel, I found out.

[00:06:53] That means it wasn't actually intended for children, but for adults.

[00:06:57] It's about the lonely Captain W., who makes friends with the boy David and

[00:07:02] experiences and invents imaginative adventures with him in Kensington Park.

[00:07:06] And one of these stories is about Peter Pan.

[00:07:10] That means that the Peter Pan story was a story within a story, i.e. a part

[00:07:15] of a frame narrative.

[00:07:16] You might recognize this from famous works like "One Thousand and One Nights", where the

[00:07:20] Scheherazade has to tell a fairy tale every night in order to survive.

[00:07:24] And here is the frame story of Captain W.

[00:07:27] And this story is then interrupted again and again with such small, imaginative stories

[00:07:30] interrupted.

[00:07:31] The chapters in which Peter Pan appears were later published as a separate children's book

[00:07:35] published as a separate children's book called "Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens".

[00:07:39] And that's the book that we have in the library right now [laughs] and so I came across this

[00:07:44] story.

[00:07:45] Christina: Then you showed me the comic. [laughs softly]

[00:07:47] Pia: Yes, exactly.

[00:07:48] Christina: Because we also have it as a graphic novel.

[00:07:49] Pia: Exactly.

[00:07:50] We got it new and that's why I thought it would be - Christina: [clicks her tongue] Oh, I could have done that

[00:07:55] I really could have thought of that.

[00:07:56] We've been shaking the whole time that we have the same story because

[00:08:01] I also have a classic.

[00:08:02] But it's not like ...

[00:08:03] Pia: And then also from the same time.

[00:08:05] Christina: Yes, as I said, in my opinion it was ... not quite the same time.

[00:08:09] Pia: Okay.

[00:08:10] Yes, but that's why I came up with it.

[00:08:11] That's why I cheated a bit, because it's better known as a children's novel, but

[00:08:16] It started out as an adult novel.

[00:08:18] The friendship between the characters in the book, between Captain W. and the young

[00:08:22] David, is also based on real events.

[00:08:25] Barrie befriended the Llewelyn Davies family, consisting of the parents Arthur and Sylvia.

[00:08:30] Sylvia, by the way, was Daphne du Maurier's aunt.

[00:08:33] Christina: [draws in a sharp breath] Cool, I love Daphne du Maurier!

[00:08:36] Pia: Right, you might know her, that's the woman who wrote "Rebecca."

[00:08:40] Christina: A good novel like that still reads today as if it were written yesterday.

[00:08:44] Incredibly great.

[00:08:45] Pia: Right, that means they were related to them and they had five sons.

[00:08:49] And together with these five sons, Barrie invented the stories.

[00:08:52] Christina: Ah.

[00:08:53] Pia: And they also served as inspiration for Peter Pan, including the lost boys.

[00:09:00] Christina: But also something like ... reminds me a lot now of "Alice in Wonderland" and the Lewis

[00:09:04] Carroll, who also sat in the boat there and told the stories with the children

[00:09:08] with the children.

[00:09:09] Exactly, there's Alice Liddell, I think her name was.

[00:09:12] And that was also the inspiration for it.

[00:09:15] Exactly.

[00:09:16] But back to Peter Pan.

[00:09:18] The character of Peter Pan was invented to entertain two of the boys, George and Jack.

[00:09:23] Barrie told them, to amuse them, that their little brother Peter could fly.

[00:09:28] He claimed babies were birds before they were born and parents would put bars on

[00:09:33] the windows of the children's rooms to keep them from flying away.

[00:09:38] So also very unusual. [both laugh skeptically]

[00:09:40] And from this idea came the story of a little boy who actually flew away

[00:09:44] flew away.

[00:09:45] And that's how Peter Pan came about.

[00:09:47] Christina: So today, when I hear the origin story, I would rather think of the beginning of a true story

[00:09:52] Crime documentary than...

[00:09:54] Pia: Or a horror movie. [laughs]

[00:09:55] Christina: Yes, a bit, isn't it?

[00:09:56] Pia: Sounds like that too.

[00:09:57] Christina: But what does it do?

[00:09:58] You can't tell a child that his brother can fly.

[00:10:02] What if they test it?

[00:10:04] Pia: Then the story would end differently. [laughs]

[00:10:07] The family obviously had bars on the windows, but wow.

[00:10:11] Pia: Could end badly, yes.

[00:10:13] Christina: Well, I think Peter Pan himself is really nice. [both laugh]

[00:10:16] Pia: Barrie also supported this family, the Llewelyn Davies family financially and he

[00:10:23] and then eventually took care of the boys [Christina, incredulous: What?] and became their guardian after the parents

[00:10:28] both passed away.

[00:10:29] Christina: Okay, was he somehow related to them?

[00:10:32] Pia: No, not at all.

[00:10:33] The parents both died, I think first the father and then the mother

[00:10:36] and then he took care of the boys.

[00:10:38] And this relationship with the family and the children was the inspiration for this

[00:10:44] novel "Little White Bird".

[00:10:47] But then Peter Pan outgrew the novel.

[00:10:50] Barrie's best-known work was the play "Peter Pan or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up"

[00:10:56] Pan or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up").

[00:10:58] from 1904 and was later adapted into a novel in 1911, "Peter Pan

[00:11:06] and Wendy" (Peter Pan and Wendy).

[00:11:08] And these are the works that are still known today.

[00:11:13] This is the story of Wendy Darling and her brothers, the story of Peter Pan, a boy

[00:11:16] who never grows up, takes them to magical Neverland and there they have all kinds of adventures

[00:11:21] adventures with the lost boys, fight against the evil Captain Hook, meet

[00:11:27] fairies, mermaids and pirates.

[00:11:29] What's also interesting is the copyright of the story.

[00:11:33] J.M.

[00:11:34] Barrie has the copyright to his Peter Pan works, namely the children's hospital

[00:11:39] Great Ormond Street Hospital.

[00:11:41] However, Peter Pan entered the public domain in Europe in 2007.

[00:11:46] But in the UK there is the Copyright Designs and Patterns Act and the

[00:11:52] ensures that the hospital still benefits from the fact that J.M.

[00:11:58] Barrie gave them that copyright.

[00:12:01] Christina: Sounds very fair to me.

[00:12:03] Pia: Right.

[00:12:04] And the library also has several Peter Pan stories, the children's versions of course

[00:12:08] as a book, as an e-book and as a Tonie, but also now the original story in the

[00:12:14] "Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens" comics.

[00:12:16] This is Peter Pan's first literary appearance and it's available from us at

[00:12:20] the adult section in the classics [editor's note: in the graphic novels]

[00:12:22] And if you like it scary, we've already mentioned a bit,

[00:12:27] Peter Pan can also be scary.

[00:12:29] And we have the "Chronicles of Peter Pan" by Christina Henry, [00:12:29] "Nightmare in Neverland".

[00:12:36] That's in the fantasy section for adults, but it's also available as an e-book or

[00:12:40] in the e-audiobooks section.

[00:12:41] It's a retelling of Peter Pan, where he's the villain.

[00:12:45] It's a mix of horror and fantasy.

[00:12:47] Exactly.

[00:12:48] That's it from me and the story of how Peter Pan came to be. [Christina applauds in the background. Christina: Applause, applause!]

[00:12:54] Christina: Yes, totally exciting.

[00:12:56] Pia: I found it interesting because certain things I knew.

[00:13:01] The copyright thing, for example, but other things like...

[00:13:04] Christina: But I think - sorry - that a lot of people just don't know about copyright -

[00:13:08] I didn't know that, and I can also imagine that our listeners do,

[00:13:10] that this is also new to them.

[00:13:12] I think it's really - well, it's now the case that classics "expire" at some point and you can use them too

[00:13:16] can be used. You can see that, for example, each of you can now tell stories about

[00:13:21] Sherlock Holmes and then publish them and monetize them. So not fan fiction,

[00:13:26] but make real money with it. But I just think it's good that the profits from the story

[00:13:34] still benefit this hospital. Pia: Yes, I think that too. I think it's great. And I think

[00:13:39] it's great that the UK goes there and says, okay, we'll do without that, you can

[00:13:42] use it however you want, so to speak. I think it's great. Yeah, exactly, that was my

[00:13:48] story. I hope you guys enjoyed it. It was a little bit interesting. Maybe we learned

[00:13:51] learned something new. Christina. Now I'm curious to see what comes from you. - Christina: [clears throat] I went to a lot of trouble

[00:14:01] a lot of effort because it's a competition to make it very exciting.

[00:14:06] Pia: [laughs] Oh dear, what's next. - Christina: Yeah, so sit down comfortably, sit back, grab a cup of tea,

[00:14:15] a coffee or close your eyes and let yourself be carried away to the birth of a myth.

[00:14:22] Because speaking of scary, I'd rather not go overboard with the suspense.

[00:14:29] It's about the birth of Bram Stoker's "Dracula". - Pia: Ah, okay, hence the creepiness. [laughs] - Christina: But also

[00:14:38] 19th century, we were already close to each other. Imagine the following scene:

[00:14:44] It's a stormy night in London sometime in 1890. Bram Stoker, an Irish theater manager

[00:14:53] and occasional author, lies in his bed, his stomach heavy from a late dinner.

[00:15:00] But then it happens. A dream grabs him with a cold hand. [both laugh]

[00:15:04] Pia has never laughed at me in all the years I've known her. [Pia continues laughing in the background. "Sorry."]

[00:15:11] Okay, you enjoy your tea, ignore Pia, lean back.

[00:15:18] Bram Stoker is gripped by the dream with the cold hand. In front of him stands a pale nobleman with

[00:15:25] fiery gaze - that is, in the dream - and around him three ghostly women with pointed teeth.

[00:15:31] They bend over the young man. But the nobleman stops them with a single sentence: [in an ominous voice]

[00:15:36] "This man is mine." Stoker jolts up, his heart racing, his mind wide awake. Still in

[00:15:43] the same night, he makes a note of the scene in his notebook. What he doesn't know at the time,

[00:15:48] this is the first spark of a novel that will change the horror genre forever.

[00:15:53] Dracula is born. Chapter One: "Research in the Shadows."

[00:15:58] But Stoker doesn't just write away. He is a man of research. And this leads

[00:16:06] him to the small English harbor town of Whitby in the summer of 1890. There, in an inconspicuous

[00:16:12] library, he comes across a book on the history of Wallachia. One name catches his eye:

[00:16:18] Draculea. This is the nickname of a Wallachian prince from the 15th century. Vlad III,

[00:16:25] also known as Vlad the Impaler. A man who impaled his enemies and killed thousands of people

[00:16:30] slaughtered in bloody wars. In a footnote, Stoker reads that Draculea in the old

[00:16:36] language not only means "son of the dragon", but is derived from the Romanian word "Drac",

[00:16:44] also "devil". A smile crosses Bram Stoker's face. His vampire has just

[00:16:51] found his name. - Pia: You make it very scenic. So you can visualize it. [both laugh softly]

[00:16:57] Christina: But it's not just Vlad's story that flows into the novel. Stoker dives deep into the

[00:17:06] European folklore, reads about undead creatures that roam the night, about garlic

[00:17:12] crosses and stakes in the heart. He uses the works of the Scottish writer Emily Gerard,

[00:17:17] who documented Transylvanian legends. Transylvania is also known as Transylvania

[00:17:24] and is a region in the center of Romania. During Stoker's research, one name comes to mind

[00:17:29] particularly caught his eye: Nosferatu, an old term for a vampire. At least that's what the peasants believe.

[00:17:37] Bram Stoker combines fact with fantasy, historical horror figures with dark

[00:17:42] myths. His Dracula is no mere adaptation of the story of Vlad III,

[00:17:47] but a terrifying figure all of his own. An undead count with hypnotic power,

[00:17:53] who lives in a remote castle and travels to the metropolis of London to feast on the blood of

[00:17:58] the blood of the living. Chapter two: "The novel takes shape.": [Pia laughs softly]

[00:18:02] It takes seven years for Stoker to complete his novel. He writes between

[00:18:10] his duties as a theater manager, often at night, sometimes until creation.

[00:18:15] "Dracula" is unusually structured, not a simple narrative but a collection

[00:18:20] of diary entries, letters and newspaper articles. This form gives the novel a documentary

[00:18:26] character. As if the horror had really happened.

[00:18:30] Pia: Isn't there, isn't there this every year, that you can read along with the book?

[00:18:34] Christina: Isn't there?

[00:18:35] Pia: Yeah, I think there's online or maybe they did that for the anniversary. I don't know

[00:18:38] not if it was last year or the year before last, but I read something,

[00:18:41] that you can actually read these diary entries and the letters that are inside on the days

[00:18:46] on the days that it happened in the year and then you get to the end of the book, so to speak.

[00:18:50] Christina: Wow, that's actually a really nice idea.

[00:18:52] Pia: But just, I don't know if they do that every year or if that was just a promotion.

[00:18:56] Christina: Finally, in May 1897, the world holds "Dracula" in its hands. The reactions? Split.

[00:19:04] Some praise the novel for its dense atmosphere, others criticize it for being too gruesome. But

[00:19:10] what Stoker doesn't realize is that his creation is immortal. - Pia: [laughs] Oh my God, ba-dum-ts!

[00:19:18] Christina: Chapter three: "The Legacy of a Bloodsucker" [Pia laughs softly]

[00:19:23] Stoker himself will not live to see great fame. But his vampire will live on.

[00:19:28] "Dracula" was first brought to the screen in 1922 with Nosferatu, but without Stoker's name.

[00:19:34] His widow Florence takes him to court and has almost all copies of the film destroyed.

[00:19:39] But the myth can no longer be erased.

[00:19:42] Dracula rises again in 1931. This time played by Bela Lugosi in the legendary Universal film adaptation.

[00:19:51] The black cloak, the hypnotic gaze: Lugosi shapes the image of the vampire for generations.

[00:19:57] Later, in 1958, Christopher Lee would give the bloodsucker a menacingly erotic touch

[00:20:04] and finally Dracula becomes an icon of pop culture.

[00:20:07] Today, more than 125 years after its first publication, Dracula is omnipresent. Countless adaptations,

[00:20:15] films, series and books are based on the work. Bram Stoker's vampire is the foundation

[00:20:20] from which every modern vampire image rests. And so Count Dracula remains among us, in the shadows

[00:20:29] of our nightmares, in the dark corners of our imagination or glittering in the sun [Pia laughs] in Robert

[00:20:36] Pattinson memes on the internet. Bram Stoker didn't just create a novel, he created a legend and

[00:20:43] maybe, just maybe, when night falls and the wind whistles around the houses,

[00:20:47] then you hear a soft scratching at your windows and you wonder: Is that Edward

[00:20:54] Cullen trying to watch me sleep again? [both laugh] No kidding, Dracula is, haha, unkillable.

[00:21:04] There's also the one that was released in Austrian theaters in January, a film by

[00:21:09] Director Robert Eggers, "Nosferatu: The Undead" and I ... it's already in theaters and I have

[00:21:19] now I've read that there's going to be another Dracula movie in 2025. - Pia: Again? - Christina: If it's true,

[00:21:25] "Dracula: A Love Tale" by Luc Besson. Pia: Exactly. Yes, that's my story. What did you think

[00:21:35] you like my story? Pia? - Pia: As I said, very scenic, so the division into chapters,

[00:21:40] I have nothing to say about that. [both laugh] Yes, I know a bit more about Dracula from my studies, because I

[00:21:47] I had a seminar on horror literature, so I already know most of it in that case,

[00:21:54] but there are certainly a few interesting things in there, even for people who may never have read it before

[00:21:58] never read it before. It's a bit of a thicker novel, people might not even be

[00:22:03] used to it or don't think it's that thick, especially for such a classic,

[00:22:07] an old one like that, where you think, ah, it's just the same story anyway, it's short

[00:22:11] told once, but it's ... just, and it also has this funny - funny? - also has this interesting

[00:22:16] form of diary entries. I actually found it quite easy to read back in my

[00:22:21] study, I have to say, because you're always moving from entry to entry,

[00:22:25] that's read once. - Christina: I somehow ... i really like horror novels and

[00:22:31] when I read "Dracula" for the first time, I picked it up and thought,

[00:22:35] it's just written in a normal prose form and then I was horrified when I realized

[00:22:40] I realized that these are diary entries, because I don't like that kind of thing at all, epistolary novels,

[00:22:44] ramen stories. - Pia: You see, that's what I found exciting! - Christina: I think it's terrible,

[00:22:48] because I always, the chapters are quite short and then, well, I basically like that

[00:22:53] about it, then it jumps like that and then you're in a different character every time. - Pia: That's what makes it

[00:22:58] exciting! [Christina: Yes, that's right, I don't like it. I prefer to stay with one person. I like the change of perspective

[00:23:03] zero. That's probably why I don't like fantasy novels

[00:23:07] Mag. - Pia: Yeah, George R.R. Martin is probably not for you then. [both laugh] - Christina: Because every time

[00:23:12] inside, you go to someone else and somehow you have no idea. Which I for example

[00:23:17] didn't know is that he's so much also from one of the Scottish writers,

[00:23:24] Emily Gerard, was so inspired by it. I didn't realize it, I read the

[00:23:29] whole story with the Vlad. III as well. I think of all the origin stories

[00:23:33] "Dracula" is also one of the better known ones. When you know, oh, there was once a prince

[00:23:37] and somehow you have that on your screen a little bit. But that's what

[00:23:41] I didn't know that, for example, and also that folklore is perhaps quite interesting,

[00:23:45] that it's Romanian folklore and that the vampire figure is such an old figure. And by the way:

[00:23:52] Not that I'm forgetting: The novel "Carmilla" - Pia: [interjects] Sheridan La Fenu, I think,

[00:23:57] I'm not sure how to pronounce it now. - Christina: [laughs] Thank you Pia. It was published before "Dracula",

[00:24:02] even. Right? That was before that. - Pia: Exactly and then there was another very, very, very earlier one, but

[00:24:09] a short story, I think, "The Vampyr" but written with a "y". The Vampyr, I don't know. [laughs] That

[00:24:16] was again, I think, the first one in English. That's actually an interesting one too

[00:24:21] origin story. That might be something for another time. I won't say anymore. [both laugh]

[00:24:25] Christina: Right. Then I know who's doing the next vampire origin story. And then "Twilight." [both laugh]

[00:24:30] Yeah, so you know, you get to vote on which of the two stories you liked better.

[00:24:37] Yes, my wonderfully scenic story, divided into chapters and inviting you to tea

[00:24:45] Story without anything subjective - Pia: A cheek! - Christina: Or Pia's story. [both laugh] - Pia: That works

[00:24:53] not at all. - Christina: So let yourselves be completely uninfluenced. Vote for it. You can do that on Instagram, on

[00:24:59] stadtbibliothek.innsbruck or by email to post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at. And if

[00:25:10] you like what you hear, then don't forget to subscribe to us. That way you can always keep an eye on us,

[00:25:14] when a new episode is released and you also support independent and ad-free content. We

[00:25:21] look forward to hearing from you. We're very excited and will show you the result in the next,

[00:25:26] our next episode - that is - when we discuss "Nincshof", right, Pia? - Pia: Yes,

[00:25:32] exactly. I've already read it. I'm not saying anything yet. - Christina: Errant goats! [both laugh] - Pia: Exactly. - Christina: I can do one thing ... a spoiler:

[00:25:39] Did you like the novel? - Pia: Yes. - Christina: Yeah, me too. [laughs] It's fantastic. So look forward to it. We're looking forward

[00:25:46] to hear from you guys. I already said that and see you soon. - Pia: Bye. [Outro music]

[00:25:49] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the city library

[00:26:18] Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:26:22] [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] [Intro music] Boris: Hello and welcome to the foreword "Kurz und Schmerzlos" today with Iris Wolff

[00:00:28] and my name is Boris Schön. Dear Ms. Wolf, nice to have you here.

[00:00:33] Iris Wolff: Thank you.

[00:00:34] Boris: First of all, I would like you to introduce yourself briefly.

[00:00:38] Iris Wolff: I haven't been asked that for a long time. It reminds you of those rounds where you then

[00:00:45] sitting there and introducing yourself one after the other. So maybe: Birthday 1977, in Sibiu

[00:00:53] and then came to Germany with my family in 1985. I have a degree in humanities

[00:01:01] studies with different subjects behind me, never had a plan what to do with it.

[00:01:06] I then became a literary mediator at the German Literature Archive in Marbach and then went into

[00:01:13] writing and today I'm here with "Lichtungen". That's my fifth novel.

[00:01:18] Boris: Yes, thank you very much. Studying the humanities and not knowing where you're going with it,

[00:01:23] that's a bit of a classic of the humanities, but I don't think they were invented,

[00:01:28] so that you know where you're going.

[00:01:30] Iris Wolff: It always seemed strange to me to take a path that is so predictable, to take something safe,

[00:01:37] because I don't think you know where the safety lies. And the other thing is, you should be careful with your

[00:01:44] talents, something as important as your job, because you just spend so much time doing it.

[00:01:49] Boris: I think so too. Things that you enjoy are important, what you fill your professional life with.

[00:01:55] Like you said, you're on the road with your new novel "Lichtungen", or your current novel,

[00:02:00] You have to say, it's about a year old now, you're a guest at the city library today.

[00:02:05] And you've already hinted at it a bit, but the question is, how did you become a writer?

[00:02:13] Iris Wolff: There was a very decisive trip to Transylvania when I was in my mid-20s.

[00:02:19] And I understood for the first time that it had a lot to do with my identity or character or origin.

[00:02:28] I locked it away for a long time and then I thought, because I'm such a novel reader,

[00:02:33] it would be a good idea to process it in a novel.

[00:02:38] So why did the German minority emigrate from Transylvania?

[00:02:42] What did it do to my family? What did it do to me as a child to leave a familiar environment?

[00:02:49] And this novel, that was such an experiment.

[00:02:53] And it took me six years to finish it, then it took me another year,

[00:02:58] until I found a publisher, Otto-Müller-Verlag in Salzburg.

[00:03:01] And when you've written a novel, you think, well, that worked, I'll do the next one.

[00:03:06] And so it went on and on.

[00:03:09] I'm really glad that life has led me to this place, because I have the impression that so much comes together,

[00:03:15] what I like and what I can do and what challenges me.

[00:03:19] Boris: A special feature of your last novel is that it is told backwards.

[00:03:25] Now I would be interested to know what the challenges were for you in writing it?

[00:03:32] Iris Wolff: I would never do it again.

[00:03:34] I have to say that very clearly.

[00:03:36] It was such a challenge to get the narrative right the way I imagined it in my head.

[00:03:42] It's always a huge difference how things appear in our head, this world, three-dimensional in a life,

[00:03:48] how we move, the narrative direction backwards.

[00:03:51] That was so clear to me.

[00:03:53] But putting it into language, so to speak, is always the challenge.

[00:03:57] And also so that readers can get into it, so that they can fall into this backwards movement,

[00:04:03] because you don't want it to be too complicated or too challenging.

[00:04:11] It's supposed to be challenging.

[00:04:14] I think literature should encourage us to think and participate and should also have empty spaces that invite us to do so,

[00:04:22] to put ourselves in relation to a text.

[00:04:25] But it should also be a kind of falling into it.

[00:04:28] You should also be able to abandon yourself to the text.

[00:04:30] And the challenge was, for example, when the protagonists discover a place for the first time in their youth,

[00:04:38] like Milena and Camille's inn, then I have to describe this space as the characters see it for the first time.

[00:04:45] But the readers, they enter this room for the first time at a completely different point.

[00:04:50] So I have to avoid redundancies.

[00:04:52] I can't tell them twice.

[00:04:54] So what's on the tables, what blankets, how is the room decorated.

[00:04:59] So I have to find a balance in the storytelling.

[00:05:03] And that was really the challenge, to weave it differently.

[00:05:07] Boris: It's also very exciting to read.

[00:05:09] There are always puzzling moments, it seemed to me, while reading.

[00:05:14] And then of course they clear up again over time.

[00:05:17] It was also very exciting for me, the reading process.

[00:05:21] Iris Wolff: You have to work more with this kind of storytelling about motifs.

[00:05:25] So motifs of recognition.

[00:05:27] Something is implied and the reader has to trust it.

[00:05:32] It's explained to me at or at some point, it's shown to me.

[00:05:38] But in the beginning it's just hints and clues.

[00:05:42] Boris: Now I would be interested to know, as you have just explained,

[00:05:48] how you have to work technically to make it work

[00:05:53] at the end a book that is constructed like this.

[00:05:57] What is your writing routine like?

[00:05:59] Do you work on your books after office hours?

[00:06:04] Or how can one imagine that?

[00:06:06] Iris Wolff: The first thing is that I take a long time.

[00:06:09] So, that I don't

[00:06:13] that I don't rush, that I don't set deadlines too early, because I think you first have to

[00:06:16] see how the material develops, in which direction it goes. I also make very few

[00:06:22] plans for my characters or for the plot and that's why I need time first, that's

[00:06:27] important. Then there are phases where the writing goes well and phases where you have to wait because you

[00:06:33] you don't know how the story is going to continue, so you need some outside help or

[00:06:37] something that life throws at you, so that you know in which direction it's going. And I am already

[00:06:43] the classic morning writer. So get up, don't watch the news, don't get caught up in emails

[00:06:51] and other temptations that lure you away from your desk, because there are

[00:06:57] always. And then I really try to use this time until twelve and push the story forward.

[00:07:04] In the afternoon, I can do more like revision or research. Then there's

[00:07:12] of course there are also big interruptions when you're on a reading tour. There are authors,

[00:07:17] who can write wonderfully on a reading tour. I can't. I do have my laptop with me,

[00:07:22] but I can write best at home. - Boris: You came to our house,

[00:07:28] actually through the Austrian Library Association. I don't know if

[00:07:34] that's true, but Markus Feigl then said that they had one, so they would have libraries

[00:07:40] very much like libraries. Now I ask the question, is that true [Iris Wolff laughs softly] and what do you like about libraries?

[00:07:45] Iris Wolff: I have my very early reading experiences in Germany, they really have a lot to do with libraries

[00:07:49] to do with libraries. This opportunity to have so much available that you can borrow,

[00:07:56] that was so wonderful and still is today. Now it's shifted a bit,

[00:08:03] to wanting to have it myself, simply because markings are possible and I can use the books that shaped me,

[00:08:10] always want to have them with me, but the best reading experiences in my youth and the

[00:08:18] growing up, they have a lot to do with libraries and you will never forget that. I have

[00:08:25] at some point, I don't know yet when it will fit and happen, that I will also visit libraries one day

[00:08:31] a literary monument, so to speak. I haven't done that yet. In "The Blurring of the World"

[00:08:37] there's Bene, the bookseller, and he says that you absolutely have to own books and

[00:08:43] That's not true. You can also borrow books. [laughs softly] - Boris: Artificial intelligence is so popular

[00:08:47] on everyone's lips at the moment and I've heard from many people who work in the creative industry, if we can call it that

[00:08:53] call it that and include literature, I've felt a bit of a fear that the

[00:08:59] could take away their work in the medium term. How do you see this specifically in relation to literature

[00:09:04] in relation to literature? - Iris Wolff: I think it's quite dangerous in the field of translation. You can already see that now,

[00:09:10] the direction it's going in. As far as literature is concerned, I'm not so afraid. Also

[00:09:16] as far as art is concerned, not even visual art, because I think, yes, of course, that would

[00:09:20] would work. That might also be entertaining, but are you really interested in something that is not

[00:09:26] a human being, another human being who has a life, who feels, who relates to the world,

[00:09:32] are you really interested in that? I doubt it. That's why I don't have much fear.

[00:09:37] I'm curious to see how it changes our lives. So I'm not completely dismissing it,

[00:09:45] but in the field of literature, it wouldn't be exciting for me to read a text where no

[00:09:52] person behind it, where no encounter is possible, maybe in real life at some point.

[00:09:56] Boris: I also ran tonight's moderation through ChatGPT for a quick test and

[00:10:02] thought to myself afterwards, they probably work in principle, but it's not

[00:10:05] my moderation. That would be a bit like that, so the feeling is completely missing.

[00:10:10] Iris Wolff: Yes, and above all, you can then decide spontaneously on stage which direction you want to take

[00:10:15] you actually want to go? Do you want to go deeper into a topic or do you want to go somewhere around the edges?

[00:10:21] again? That's what happens at the moment. Otherwise you deny yourself that.

[00:10:27] Boris: Yes, absolutely. Thank you very much for these insights. Now I wanted to finish by asking you ...

[00:10:33] or ask you for a literature tip for our readers. - Iris Wolff: I'm going to choose one here

[00:10:39] book of poetry that I discovered last year. It's by an American author, Mary Oliver,

[00:10:45] who writes such wonderful poems that I have to go through this book of poems infinitely slowly

[00:10:54] move endlessly. It's called "Tell me, what are you going to do with your wild, precious life". In English,

[00:11:02] I think it has a completely different title, that's what the publisher chose for the German edition

[00:11:06] chose. I've now also bought it in English and I'm reading it in parallel. These are

[00:11:11] really invitations to arrive a little more in the moment and to appreciate life,

[00:11:19] especially in connection with nature. There is such great gratitude

[00:11:24] in this book, as far as everything living is concerned, and these are very valuable impulses

[00:11:31] and also an incredibly clear, unpretentious language that the author has. - Boris: Poetry for the

[00:11:39] Enjoyment. - Iris Wolff: Exactly. - Boris: Yes, thank you very much for the interview and I'm already looking forward to the interview

[00:11:45] with you on stage tonight. - Iris Wolff: With pleasure.

[00:11:48] [Outro music] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:12:18] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated

[00:00:07] [Intro music] Jaci: Hello and welcome to "Vorwort", the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:00:27] and to our monthly format "Teatime". Today again with Shelly and Jaci.

[00:00:33] And as befits a proper tea time, we both made ourselves a cup of tea.

[00:00:39] Shelly, what kind of tea are you having?

[00:00:41] Shelly: Today I'm having "forest bathing" with peppermint, rosemary and pine shoots.

[00:00:49] Don't ask me what pine shoots are, but it tastes a lot like the forest.

[00:00:53] Jaci: I have a classic English Breakfast Tea. Unfortunately without milk or lemon because I don't have either.

[00:00:59] You take what you can get. Exactly, then nothing stands in the way of our tea time

[00:01:04] and we can talk about today's topic. Today's topic is the "Book Icks".

[00:01:10] But Shelly, what are book Icks?

[00:01:20] Shelly: The Oxford Dictionary has "Ick" as an exclamation, "an expression of disgust".

[00:01:29] So an "Ick" is about a state of mind, but it's not always easy to grasp.

[00:01:35] Or rather, it's not so easy to explain.

[00:01:38] Some things or behaviors simply repel us for reasons we can't explain

[00:01:44] and we have then caught the "Ick", so to speak.

[00:01:49] Online, the phenomenon is also associated with the concept of "cringe", which is perhaps even more common.

[00:01:55] And this also involves a physical reaction, but more out of embarrassment.

[00:02:00] The "Ick" has its origins in a romantic context, namely when you're in the dating phase, i.e. when you're not yet together,

[00:02:09] you lose interest in a potential partner from one moment to the next

[00:02:17] and now it's used in social media, but also for other things,

[00:02:22] i.e. jobs, series, meals, situations or clothes.

[00:02:27] And almost everything can evoke the "Ick".

[00:02:30] It's a strong antipathy towards something.

[00:02:33] And in our case today, towards books and everything that has to do with them in that context.

[00:02:42] Jaci: Okay, my first "Ick" is when on the cover, especially with fantasy series,

[00:02:49] with novels I don't really care, with fantasy series, if they put real people on the cover.

[00:02:57] So if there's no, not just the Strift on the cover and somehow nice colors,

[00:03:02] but really a photo of a real person, so to speak, because then I'm totally taken away from how I imagine the person.

[00:03:09] Shelly: Right, especially with fantasy that's so important because they're usually not quite human beings, right?

[00:03:15] Jaci: Exactly, they're either always so beautiful and no idea what and then it always upsets me so much when there are real people in the book.

[00:03:22] Because then I'm robbed of any creativity and the person never looks the way I imagine them to look

[00:03:28] and then I'm always quite annoyed when that happens.

[00:03:32] Shelly: Do you have a specific example?

[00:03:34] Jaci: "Throne of Glass" by Sarah J. Maas, the first German edition that I bought back then - I saw it in the bookstore - I bought it

[00:03:43] and it was so ugly, I'm sorry, because it really just had a real person on it who looked absolutely nothing like the main character

[00:03:51] and that really bothered me.

[00:03:54] There's now a revised cover version with a painted figure, which I think is better.

[00:04:00] Or now, "Das Reich der Sieben Höfe", the German editions also have a person on the cover, which I also find terrible.

[00:04:07] Shelly: And then there's this transparent cover with that printed on it.

[00:04:12] Jaci: Don't even get me started. [both laugh]

[00:04:14] Shelly: We see, we're slowly getting in.

[00:04:17] My first Ick that I wrote down is when the cover of a book has the special price [Jaci groans annoyed] of 15 euros printed on it and it's not just a sticker,

[00:04:32] I have that quite often when I order books and then work them in, I always want to try to scratch it off and then it's just printed on, 3D-style.

[00:04:41] How do you get the idea?

[00:04:44] Jaci: Someone does something to themselves with the cover design and then ... Shelly: And then you destroy it with this sticker that isn't a sticker!

[00:04:51] Jaci: My next one is, I think it's also very, I think everyone knows that, everyone who's ever read or bought a book series knows that.

[00:05:00] And that's when you have the series 6 parts and all of a sudden from the 5th they kind of change the size of the book, the color of the book or something else.

[00:05:15] So if somehow the first 3 parts are small, and then the 5th or 4th is suddenly big or something, [Shelly: Schrecklick. ] exactly, that's the size or color of the spine.

[00:05:26] It's either it all has to fit together or it has to be different colors, but each book.

[00:05:32] So the first 4 can't be white and then it suddenly turns blue, because then my heart is destroyed, because I'm sorting my bookshelves in the rainbow.

[00:05:43] And either the row is not together, not at all or ... or, what ... that doesn't work.

[00:05:50] Shelly:Okay, so color makes a big difference for you, I can see that. Let's stick to the topic then. My next Ick might be a little controversial because I know some people who totally celebrate it.

[00:06:01] Jaci: Oh, oh, I know what's coming.

[00:06:03] Shelly: Color cuts.

[00:06:05] Jaci: Oh, so great!

[00:06:06] Shelly: I hate it.

[00:06:08] Jaci: No, I think it's so great.

[00:06:09] Shelly: I have several reasons for that.

[00:06:12] Jaci: Explain.

[00:06:13] Shelly: I'll explain.

[00:06:14] Well, first of all, it goes against my primal instinct to put the books on the shelf upside down.

[00:06:24] And that would be the only reason I would be persuaded that a color cut makes sense.

[00:06:32] But because I like to put my books so that they have their backs to me, [Jaci laughs in the background] because there's a title and stuff on them, which is not unimportant with books.

[00:06:43] I don't understand the concept of a color carving.

[00:06:46] You can't see it.

[00:06:48] And when you read it, you don't see it either, because you've opened the book.

[00:06:53] Why?

[00:06:54] Why?

[00:06:55] I don't understand it.

[00:06:56] No.

[00:06:57] And [Jaci laughs] before you say anything about how great it is, it makes the book ...

[00:07:01] Books are getting more expensive anyway, it makes the book that much more expensive.

[00:07:05] And now imagine you're a newcomer, you want to publish your own books, people are really into color cuts, they only buy color cuts and special editions,

[00:07:17] Find a publisher who will publish you as a newcomer in a color cut.

[00:07:23] You need a certain print run, a larger one, so that it's profitable.

[00:07:29] Jaci: May I say something? [both laugh]

[00:07:31] I don't dare.

[00:07:33] Shelly: No... yeah, okay, say. Please.

[00:07:34] Convince me otherwise.

[00:07:37] Jaci: Okay. When you buy a book, do you look at the cover?

[00:07:41] Shelly: Yes.

[00:07:42] Jaci: Is a nice cover important to you?

[00:07:45] Shelly: [hesitantly] Yes.

[00:07:46] But you don't see that when you read it.

[00:07:49] And you don't see it when it's on the shelf, but you know it's there.

[00:07:53] And that makes you happy if it's pretty?

[00:07:56] Shelly: Yeah, it does.

[00:07:58] Every book needs a cover, not every book needs a color cover.

[00:08:04] Jaci: I personally think it's great, but just because I really appreciate pretty books,

[00:08:09] because earlier books, well I think the earlier 2000s book covers were just not pretty.

[00:08:14] And I also think that with the advent of Bookstagram and Booktok,

[00:08:18] there's just a lot more emphasis on how books look, just from the cover.

[00:08:22] And I think the color sections somehow make it even more special.

[00:08:26] I just think it's such a love of detail that I think it's really great.

[00:08:30] I understand your reasoning, you can't see it when it's on the shelf or something.

[00:08:35] But you know it's there.

[00:08:38] And then somehow, when you take it with you, when you take photos,

[00:08:41] if it's just lying there, if you take it in between reading or something,

[00:08:44] I think it gives me a lot of satisfaction to have a nice book lying there.

[00:08:49] But it's getting more expensive, I agree.

[00:08:51] But I'm also the person who bought four different editions of my favorite book,

[00:08:54] because they're pretty.

[00:08:56] Shelly: Yeah, me too. [both laugh]

[00:08:58] But there's none with a color cut.

[00:09:00] There's not a single color cut on my shelf.

[00:09:02] [startled] Lie, lie.

[00:09:04] Jaci: I only have one with gold pages, is that ... ?

[00:09:06] Shelly: Yeah, that's mine too, that's why.

[00:09:08] But it's in a slipcase inside, the Sherlock Holmes in miniature.

[00:09:11] Jaci: Ah, okay.

[00:09:13] Shelly: With Bible pages, so thin.

[00:09:15] And yeah, they have a color cut, okay.

[00:09:17] Jaci: Okay, okay.

[00:09:19] One of my icks that I'm working on a lot, just because I lend my books out a lot.

[00:09:22] And I've gotten a lot better.

[00:09:24] Friends used to be very afraid to borrow my books.

[00:09:27] Because they were afraid that they would break them too much.

[00:09:29] And I wouldn't take them back and they'd have to buy them back. [laughs]

[00:09:32] It only happened once.

[00:09:34] I'm working on it a lot, an Ick is the grooves on the spine of paperbacks.

[00:09:40] I think they're really bad.

[00:09:42] It just shows you that a book has been read.

[00:09:45] So it's nothing bad.

[00:09:47] It's not damage to the book.

[00:09:49] But it bothers me immensely when they're on the shelf to have those grooves there.

[00:09:53] And I've read a lot of books that I've only opened a third of the way through,

[00:09:57] to avoid the grooves.

[00:09:59] But the creases were there anyway.

[00:10:01] Shelly: Yes, I understand, I used to see it that way too.

[00:10:04] Now I put it a little bit in comparison to a person who's aging.

[00:10:10] He gets wrinkles too and I think wrinkles are very beautiful. [Jaci: Ohhhh, nice.]

[00:10:12] And already shows a great life with lots of emotions.

[00:10:17] Jaci: Yeah, okay.

[00:10:19] Just, it's an Ick that I'm working on because I know it's stupid.

[00:10:23] Because a book has to have grooves so you can read it.

[00:10:26] But it's not pretty and it bugs me.

[00:10:32] Shelly: So now you have to buy color sections and put it on the shelf upside down. [Jaci laughs]

[00:10:37] And then that can't happen.

[00:10:38] Jaci: Two birds with one stone.

[00:10:40] Shelly: Oh yeah, so great.

[00:10:41] My next Ick, if the, boah, there's, whoever came up with that [Jaci laughs], there's

[00:10:48] there are formats for books where the cover page is for paperback.

[00:10:55] The cover page is shorter than the rest, all the rest of the pages, even the, what do you call it

[00:11:04] the other back cover page of a book?

[00:11:07] Jaci: The last ... the back cover? I don't know ... Shelly: The butt of the book. [both laugh]

[00:11:12] Exactly, it's the exact same length as the pages, just the first page, the cover page

[00:11:19] is shorter.

[00:11:20] In the case of "They Both Die at the End" by Adam Silvera, it's the same in our edition

[00:11:24] we have in the library.

[00:11:25] I also find it quite pointless.

[00:11:27] I have another one that matches your sticker or non-sticker on the cover.

[00:11:33] That's when I go into a bookshop and look at a book and read the contents

[00:11:38] and the price that the bookstore puts over it or something like that, over

[00:11:44] over the content and then I can't read the content.

[00:11:47] Shelly: In the back, on the spine?

[00:11:48] Jaci: I know it's not the book's fault, maybe it's bookstore-itch, but it bothers me,

[00:11:53] bothers me a lot.

[00:11:54] Shelly: When Enemies become Lovers too quickly, when that slow burn is so choppy and

[00:12:03] you suddenly have the total fireworks, I don't like that, then cartoon covers for

[00:12:09] Spicy Books, for erotic books, for example "Icebreaker".

[00:12:13] Jaci: Very misleading.

[00:12:15] Shelly:Yes.

[00:12:16] Jaci: It romanticizes and trivializes everything.

[00:12:20] Shelly: Trivialized.

[00:12:21] Jaci: Trivialized, exactly.

[00:12:22] Shelly: Then extremely long chapters in a book, I don't like that at all.

[00:12:26] Jaci: Right.

[00:12:27] Shelly: I'm not patient enough for that and I'm a chapter to chapter person

[00:12:32] Read.

[00:12:33] That means even if I have to go to the bathroom really bad, I still read the chapter

[00:12:36] finished.

[00:12:37] Jaci: It's really bad when you say you're going to read before you go to sleep and then say you're going to read one more chapter when

[00:12:42] then it's a hundred pages. - Shelly [at the same time]: Are you busy for three hours then.

[00:12:43] Jaci: Especially when you fall asleep and then I don't know what happened.

[00:12:46] My brain can only finalize it when it's chapter closed.

[00:12:49] May I also add to the tropes, I just thought of another private one that I

[00:12:53] obviously didn't write down.

[00:12:55] But that's just when the content of the book is just tropes.

[00:12:58] So if the only interesting thing about a book is that it's tropes.

[00:13:02] Shelly: If you fully exploit that.

[00:13:05] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:13:06] So if now, if it's enemies-to-lovers and nothing else happens except

[00:13:10] this enemies-to-lovers thing.

[00:13:11] I think a trope, apart from that, a book should always have multiple tropes,

[00:13:16] but it should also have something that sort of justifies that there's a story

[00:13:21] happening that's not this enemies-to-lovers or second-chance romance or any of these

[00:13:27] of these romance tropes in particular.

[00:13:28] So I always find that really, really annoying. [Shelly makes approving noises]

[00:13:30] Shelly: Yeah, a trope is not a genre.

[00:13:32] Jaci: Exactly, that's very true.

[00:13:34] Trope alone does not make content.

[00:13:36] Shelly: No. It can't lift the whole book.

[00:13:39] Jaci: Yeah, that's right.

[00:13:40] One thing that bothered me a lot when I buy books or look at books and

[00:13:46] there's no content at the back, just these blurbs, this "Best Book This Year" X/Y author

[00:13:56] or just this "Stunning" or something that doesn't say anything about the book.

[00:14:00] But where I think to myself, I want to know what it's about and you have to search for the content

[00:14:04] whether it's on the first page or in the book somewhere or I don't know where you can find the

[00:14:10] content from. - Shelly: Blurb.

[00:14:11] Jaci: Yeah, exactly, yeah.

[00:14:12] And that always bugs the hell out of me when there's just blurbs.

[00:14:14] Also very annoying, I think,

[00:14:18] That's especially the case with young adult series, if it's a fantasy series, but if I'm a

[00:14:23] bibliocrat in my job function, I go to the shelf and someone asks, "Can you give me

[00:14:29] the second part of this series" and I then have to take this book apart intensively

[00:14:34] to find out which part it is.

[00:14:37] Shelly:Yeah, really annoying.

[00:14:38] Jaci: If it can just be somewhere, like, second part of the series.

[00:14:40] Shelly: [unintelligible]

[00:14:42] Jaci: Anything.

[00:14:43] You'd like something.

[00:14:44] Shelly: But that's so often, especially with the historical novels, I often have the problem with the advice,

[00:14:48] that I really have to go to the information desk with the book in my hand and look it up in the system.

[00:14:54] Jaci: Please all publishing houses and so on, please write the numbers somewhere.

[00:15:00] Shelly: Yes, please.

[00:15:01] That doesn't interfere with the aesthetics,

[00:15:02] which band this is.

[00:15:04] Thank you.

[00:15:05] I have another one.

[00:15:07] But that's very library-specific.

[00:15:10] I don't know.

[00:15:11] I don't think you understand that if you don't work in a library.

[00:15:13] And that's when the books are so thin and we stick our system on them, so

[00:15:19] the recognition that we have so that we can find the book on the shelf.

[00:15:22] Shelly: The white sticker at the bottom.

[00:15:24] Jaci: Exactly, where it says the classification group, so the shelf where it has to be and also

[00:15:28] always the signature.

[00:15:29] And if the book is so thin that you can't recognize it and then pull the book out

[00:15:34] from the other books and have to see what it says.

[00:15:38] Extremely annoying when you're looking for a book or when you're tidying up.

[00:15:41] Shelly: When you're alphabetizing.

[00:15:42] Jaci: Very bad.

[00:15:43] Shelly: I totally agree with you.

[00:15:45] And then when the books are too big for our shelves, [00:15:45] Jaci groans annoyed] when we shove them in crosswise

[00:15:53] have to.

[00:15:54] These are all little things.

[00:15:56] We really have absolutely no other problems than these little ... [both laugh]

[00:16:00] But yes, it's just these things when you're confronted with them every day.

[00:16:05] It gets on your nerves at some point.

[00:16:07] Jaci: Exactly, and those were just our private icks.

[00:16:10] And we were still looking at, or I was looking at, what are the most common Icks, what

[00:16:17] there are on Booktok.

[00:16:19] Or as I call it now after this episode: "Icktok".

[00:16:23] Shelly: [laughs softly] She just came up with it before, she was really excited.

[00:16:26] Jaci: I've been waiting 30 minutes to make that joke. [Shelly imitates drum]

[00:16:29] Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[00:16:32] Thank you for your laughter.

[00:16:33] I'm listening through the podcast channels

[00:16:35] I'm listening through it.

[00:16:36] And there were the most common icks:

[00:16:38] That very familiar "She is not like the other girls."

[00:16:43] Shelly: Pick me, pick me.

[00:16:44] Exactly these pick me girls and this "Just because she's brunette, she's not like the other girls"

[00:16:48] the other girls" and maybe she even has glasses on because then

[00:16:51] she's directly "exotic".

[00:16:52] Shelly: Are you describing yourself right now?

[00:16:54] Jaci: Yes. [both laugh]

[00:16:55] You too. - Shelly [laughing]: Right!

[00:16:56] Just that, that trope, that "She is not like the other girls" trope, the pregnancy trope,

[00:17:05] Everyone seems to hate it.

[00:17:06] I don't have a personal aversion to it, but I can tell by the look on your face, you

[00:17:12] I do.

[00:17:13] Shelly: Because then it's so forced, I think.

[00:17:15] If there's a happy ending, it's only because there's a child.

[00:17:18] Jaci: That's the next thing that annoys everyone, is this happy ending.

[00:17:22] But happy endings only happen when everyone is in a relationship, everyone has a child and everyone is married

[00:17:26] and everyone is generally only happy, especially women, when they have a man.

[00:17:29] One Ick that you have to agree with a lot is "Obsessive Male Characters" and with that

[00:17:36] just meant, these obsessive "alpha males" they're often called. - Shelly: Ugh.

[00:17:42] Jaci: There are books where that's done well and then there are books like in the "Twisted

[00:17:49] series" that I just read where it's not done well, where it's really, where

[00:17:53] you think to yourself, where does this obsession come from, where it's really almost pathological.

[00:17:57] And then the last thing is, as you said before, when figures are

[00:18:02] fall in love too quickly.

[00:18:03] So when, especially with enemies-to-lovers, the enmity is not justified and the love

[00:18:08] comes far too quickly.

[00:18:09] Mostly through these "Obsessive Male Characters", because they throw themselves at the women

[00:18:14] and that's always very difficult.

[00:18:17] Exactly, that was on "IckTok" [both laugh] the most frequently mentioned Icks.

[00:18:22] That was it with our Icks.

[00:18:25] Maybe we should have made a little disclaimer at the beginning that we're books

[00:18:28] really like books, [both laugh] because it was really such book shaming.

[00:18:33] Somehow, we really like books, books are great.

[00:18:37] There are only a few things that bother us sometimes, but it's okay.

[00:18:41] We still love them.

[00:18:42] Shelly: It's like that with anything you like.

[00:18:45] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:18:46] Shelly: It gets a little annoying.

[00:18:47] Jaci: That's right.

[00:18:48] One last little thing.

[00:18:49] Shelly, how are you doing with your TBR?

[00:18:51] Shelly: Phew, so I'm busy.

[00:18:54] I'm currently on the fifth volume of The Realm of the Seven Courts [Jaci: Uhh!]

[00:19:00] So I'll be finished soon, [Jaci: Uhhh!] I'm on the side, I don't know, 800 something.

[00:19:04] Jaci: [draws in a sharp breath] That's really almost done.

[00:19:06] Shelly: So the e-book is over 1000 pages.

[00:19:08] Jaci: Oh my God.

[00:19:09] Shelly: And I'm almost done with "A Little Life".

[00:19:14] I'm only about 200 pages short.

[00:19:16] Jaci: [draws in a sharp breath] Whew.

[00:19:17] Shelly: And I'm also on the second part of "Throne of Glass" right now.

[00:19:22] Jaci: Okay, then you're all about reading your TBR.

[00:19:26] I'm proud of you, Shelly.

[00:19:28] Shelly: Thank you.

[00:19:29] How are you doing?

[00:19:30] Jaci: I haven't read anything from my TBR yet.

[00:19:32] But I haven't read the "King of Wrath" series by Ana Huang, but the "Twisted" one

[00:19:37] series just now.

[00:19:38] Shelly: Mhm.

[00:19:39] Jaci: I'll comment on the closeness to it, except that the last few tropes the "IckTok" didn't

[00:19:43] likes are all in it, I'll leave that in the room for now.

[00:19:46] But I really do plan to, once I've read everything I've borrowed from the library

[00:19:51] to start "A Little Life".

[00:19:53] So it can only be a matter of months.

[00:19:55] Shelly: Mhm.

[00:19:56] Jaci [smiling]: And then I'll start it.

[00:19:57] Of course, we will also be very interested in what you like most about reading, about books,

[00:20:04] about literature, what your book icks are.

[00:20:07] You can either write to us on Instagram, "stadtbibliothek.innsbruck" or send us an

[00:20:16] email to post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at.

[00:20:21] And otherwise just have a look at Instagram.

[00:20:24] Maybe you'll find a little survey about the Icks - Jaci [laughing]: Or inspiration for Icks.

[00:20:30] Shelly: [laughs] Or inspiration for Icks.

[00:20:32] Jaci: Thank you very much for listening.

[00:20:36] Wishing you continued Ick-free reading.

[00:20:38] Shelly: And we'll see you at the next tea time.

[00:20:41] Jaci: Yes, we look forward to it.

[00:20:42] [Outro music] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:21:11] and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [Voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [Voice modulates] [Intro music]

[00:00:07] Boris: Hello and welcome back to "Foreword - Short and sweet".

[00:00:27] Today with Christian Fuchs. My name is Boris Schön.

[00:00:31] Dear Christian, nice to have you here.

[00:00:33] Christian: Hello, yes, I'm very happy too.

[00:00:34] Boris: First of all, I would like to ask you to introduce yourself.

[00:00:37] Christian: Yes, so Christian Fuchs, journalist, musician, fan of pop culture in general, I'm basically a founding member of FM4,

[00:00:47] I've been doing the show "House auf Pain", the rock show on FM4, for a very long time,

[00:00:51] with a very broad spectrum of music, but all very rock-oriented.

[00:00:56] And for a few years now, I've also been running the "Film Podcast" together with my colleague Pia Reiser,

[00:01:00] which has now been voted the most successful film podcast in the German-speaking world by the FM4 community.

[00:01:07] I'm very proud of that. And exactly, I also have many, many bands,

[00:01:11] started out with hater music, "Fetish 69", was industrial rock.

[00:01:15] "Bunny Lake" was a very successful electropop band and a few years ago "Die Buben im Pelz",

[00:01:21] with six musicians together, or I'm the sixth member,

[00:01:25] Viennese song versions of Lurid songs or inspired by them

[00:01:30] and my own band, a solo project called "Black Palms Orchestra",

[00:01:35] which is also very, very film-inspired in the broadest sense.

[00:01:39] Boris: As you've already said, you're also a founding member of FM4, so to speak,

[00:01:43] That means that your "bread and butter" is already a radio presenter, can you say that?

[00:01:48] Christian: That's definitely my bread and butter, so I used to be a freelancer as well

[00:01:52] for a lot of print media, but it's my main job now.

[00:01:56] What I forgot to mention is that I recently became an author in the FM4 context,

[00:02:01] published a movie book with my most personal FM4 movie reviews,

[00:02:06] "Das Glühen im Dunkeln", that was added, but yes, journalist.

[00:02:10] Boris: Now I just ask myself the very banal question, if I imagine,

[00:02:14] you have a full-time job at the radio station, you have band projects on the side,

[00:02:18] you're writing a book, how many hours a week do you work?

[00:02:22] Christian: Way too much, so that's maybe a personal main problem.

[00:02:26] I'm not a workaholic, that's what people might assume,

[00:02:30] On the contrary, I like being lazy too, but there's not much time for being lazy,

[00:02:35] So all these activities take up a lot of time.

[00:02:40] Boris: And where does the drive come from, do you always have the energy, so to speak?

[00:02:44] to keep all these projects going? There are always new things coming up,

[00:02:48] It's not like you're just driving along in your tracks and you're done, so...

[00:02:52] Christian: Some things are brought to me, so I get offers somehow

[00:02:56] or suggestions from other people that I find hard to turn down because they're so attractive.

[00:03:01] Then, of course, there's the FM4 job, so the "Film Podcast" alone swallows me up

[00:03:06] maybe two or three, definitely evenings a week, but sometimes days,

[00:03:11] because I do a lot of research and preparation beforehand.

[00:03:15] "House of Pain" is done together with colleagues, so that's every Wednesday,

[00:03:21] a different person with whom I co-host and they put the music together,

[00:03:25] because I really wouldn't have any more time for that and they also bring something completely new,

[00:03:29] fresh input and yes, also from fans. So film is perhaps the area,

[00:03:34] where I'm still an ardent fan. In other areas it's maybe gone down a bit now

[00:03:39] or I leave it to others, but I read movie magazines, movie blogs, look forward to new movies, so...

[00:03:45] Boris: Would you say that when the fanhood goes a bit to the side, the professionalism comes?

[00:03:51] Christian: Well, I try to balance that out completely, because pure fanhood doesn't work as journalism,

[00:03:57] I think that's also important. So I work with a lot of people

[00:04:01] and "House of Pain" is, if you add it all up, maybe ten people,

[00:04:05] I would even say on a monthly basis. And it's very, very important that they also

[00:04:10] have a bit of a self-ironic approach on the one hand, because rock music or metal music is also something deadly serious

[00:04:16] and we don't want that in the show. And on the other hand, this objective

[00:04:22] - under quotation marks "journalistic" approach. So the pure fan-tum,

[00:04:27] where you just pay homage to your icons, I don't want that and we don't want that.

[00:04:32] Boris: Yes, that's probably not particularly exciting for outsiders either, I think ...

[00:04:36] Christian: Totally. And also a kind of nerddom where two nerds sit down, whether female or male, and then get nerdy

[00:04:42] and everyone else has to listen. The people are involved, of course, and the listeners

[00:04:49] and yes, this nerdiness and fanaticism also needs to be kept in check a bit.

[00:04:54] Boris: Yes, you already mentioned the show "House of Pain", that's also the reason why you're here today.

[00:04:58] That is, let's say, for me personally now as the organizer in the house, a happy coincidence,

[00:05:05] that this has come about. And I think this is also the first time today,

[00:05:10] that you're bringing "House of Pain" live on stage into the room.

[00:05:14] Christian: Totally, so there's never been a sound lecture like this before, which there was in the early days,

[00:05:19] that stopped happening at some point, in the early days there were "House of Pain" discos

[00:05:23] or evenings where we DJ'd, where the music was played, but something like this today is completely new for us.

[00:05:32] Boris: It kind of takes an aspect out of "House of Pain" musically.

[00:05:37] There are several genres that come together, as you said.

[00:05:40] Today it's about metal, the history of metal. I'm really looking forward to it, I'm sure it will be very exciting.

[00:05:46] I would also like to briefly mention who else is on stage,

[00:05:49] that's Paul Kraker, who is often a guest of yours and also works as a newsreader for Ö1

[00:05:56] and Medina Rekic, who is a musician herself and also has various band projects.

[00:06:02] Christian: Yes, a very internationally successful project, the "White Miles",

[00:06:05] that was perhaps one of the most successful Tyrolean rock bands ever,

[00:06:09] because they were active and the "Slicky Nerves" is a current band, so it's very active there

[00:06:15] and it's also important that people from the scene get involved.

[00:06:19] So there's also Sonja, Sonja Maier, who has a band called "Baits", a very successful punk band.

[00:06:25] She's also in the scene, knows the people, goes to concerts, plays shows.

[00:06:30] So this connection is important, because the movie often swallows me up.

[00:06:34] I don't have time to watch that much.

[00:06:37] Boris: Now the thing is, as you said before, you have several bands yourself

[00:06:41] and have had some, but you're not actually a musician, are you? Or is that wrong?

[00:06:46] Christian: No, I'm totally self-taught.

[00:06:49] I don't want to... so in the meantime, I think I can maybe cautiously call myself that,

[00:06:54] after so many years, I started without being able to sing, so I really only shouted at the beginning

[00:07:00] from my first band, I'm also inspired by this punk ethos, this punk spirit.

[00:07:08] So you also go on stage and try it out, even bands like "Einstürzende Neubauten" for example,

[00:07:13] where I think it was only later that real musicians joined that inspired me a lot.

[00:07:17] And it's over the years, I would already put myself in that direction,

[00:07:22] but I still can't play an instrument, I still can't read music.

[00:07:25] I think I'm often like a curator in my other projects, so I know a lot of music,

[00:07:30] I think I could even produce music without knowing how every button on the mixing desk works.

[00:07:36] I think I heard that, I did, but I'm totally self-taught, yeah.

[00:07:40] Boris: What is also an almost constant element of these bands is that they always play cover versions of well-known pop songs,

[00:07:48] You mentioned Lou Reed earlier, but I also think of the "tilt group" for example, back then, Lana Del Rey covers and the like.

[00:07:56] What's the secret to a good cover version for you?

[00:08:00] Christian: I think a good cover version makes the song completely its own.

[00:08:04] Well, there's also a new album now, for example from "Soap&Skin" with covers,

[00:08:09] so you don't really recognize the originals anymore or maybe you forget them when you listen.

[00:08:14] On the one hand, I think disrespectful cover versions are unnecessary,

[00:08:19] bows to the original on the one hand, but at the same time something completely new is created

[00:08:23] and it happens to me again and again when you've really rehearsed it, when you record it in the studio, when you play it live,

[00:08:28] I forget that it's from someone else.

[00:08:31] So the songs are also chosen so carefully that it has to fit musically and lyrically somehow

[00:08:36] and then it somehow becomes its own song, you forget that, so I'm also involved in a project now,

[00:08:41] because I don't have enough bands, it's called "Der Kleine Tod", with a musician and cultural activist from Los Angeles,

[00:08:50] Berit Gilma, and they recently did a cover of "Modern Talking".

[00:08:55] "You're My Heart, You're My Soul", a 90s disco hit that was incredibly successful worldwide

[00:09:01] and we made a funeral song out of it, so unbelievable

[00:09:05] slow, incredibly dark and sad and I never think of "Modern" at all when I listen to it

[00:09:11] Talking" anymore, even though Dieter Bohlen gets the royalties. - Boris: I'm just going to put

[00:09:14] the question: Really 90s, I would have liked Dieter Bohlen at the end of the 80s ... Christian: Or

[00:09:19] maybe it was, maybe I was even wrong about the categorization, maybe it's

[00:09:22] the song could be from the later 80s. - Boris: [laughs] Those are details, yes. I just

[00:09:28] just occurred to me, my gut feeling was that Dieter Bohlen is older than ...

[00:09:33] Christian: Maybe that's the case, I think even in the later 80s, that's true. - Boris: Now an

[00:09:41] interesting thing I think, which again, to come back to FM4, the one thing is that,

[00:09:47] FM4 is now 25 years old, no that's not true, is it? - Christian: FM4 is now 30 years old in January. - Boris: How was

[00:09:56] the founding of this radio station back then? - Christian: Very, very exciting, so FM4 really has many,

[00:10:01] many different phases and it was basically the case that Ö3 was transformed into

[00:10:07] a format radio station, which is still the flagship of the ORF today, somehow commercially,

[00:10:13] and FM4 initially consisted of all the outsiders who worked at Ö3.

[00:10:20] There were various programs that were so youth-cultural and pop-cultural and these programs

[00:10:23] were all cut because they no longer fit into the radio format. There was a

[00:10:27] wild bunch of very contradictory people got together and not right at the beginning it was

[00:10:32] boss, but then for decades Monika Eigensperger, as the boss, held it together

[00:10:37] with the spirit and yes, the most diverse worlds collided and so on and that is also

[00:10:42] driven by the spirit of this independent / alternative rock scene back then. Now

[00:10:48] everything has changed a lot through streaming, through Gen Z and their approach to music,

[00:10:53] so it's become something completely different, but back then it was really this indie rock spirit.

[00:10:58] Boris: What I also realized later at FM4 and I wanted to ask you about that,

[00:11:02] has that always been a part of it, that in addition to the radio station, so to speak

[00:11:06] there really is a lot of content on the FM4 website. There are a lot of texts, it's like you

[00:11:11] also said before, the movie reviews, but there are also, I don't know, around the "wording",

[00:11:17] this short story competition and so on. There's just so much textual stuff,

[00:11:22] journalistic activity, that's a bit of a special phenomenon with a

[00:11:26] radio station or is that? - Christian: No, FM4 was a pioneer because the station already did that,

[00:11:30] this online presence started in 2000, because the station has always seen it in a very multimedia way

[00:11:36] and I think that's the future of radio, I'm not a radio theorist,

[00:11:39] but from what I've heard, it's also moving into areas where a lot of video clips are involved,

[00:11:44] where it's also used visually and all kinds of media, so to speak. In the beginning there were

[00:11:49] there were also, for example, reading trips where FM4 editors traveled around and wrote about

[00:11:54] their favorite books, so there was also literature involved,

[00:11:59] everything that makes up pop culture in the broadest sense and also politics and social issues

[00:12:03] topics, it was always intended to be multimedia. - Boris: And also definitely a critical radio station?

[00:12:08] Christian: Yes, within the framework of course, which is also very important to me within the framework of the ORF, within the framework of the

[00:12:15] ORF law also critically, but of course now also ... "objective", that's a word that I consider

[00:12:22] even in film criticism, because the subjective aspect of these personal approaches

[00:12:26] FM4 also lives from these personal approaches, but the ORF law does play a role and that's not opinion making in

[00:12:32] in the sense that it's simply a critical look at many topics, yes. I can say one thing about it,

[00:12:36] the educational mission, that always sounds so brittle, that word, but that's what I personally like

[00:12:41] insanely important to me personally, even in the "House of Pain", so educational mission means when we make a tape

[00:12:46] like "Black Sabbath" and young people might not even know it, that we explain,

[00:12:49] who they are and where they come from. That's how I was educated, so for me that was also very

[00:12:55] centrally at a young age and that's actually very important to me. - Boris: That's when I

[00:13:00] I confess that I stole a little bit from ORF, so it's also for my

[00:13:05] events, it's always important to me that you also have an educational event, so to speak,

[00:13:11] that can either be a general educational event, but it can also be,

[00:13:14] that you simply talk about a specific topic, a specific occasion, a publication

[00:13:20] then you can simply find out more information and yes, also in the city library.

[00:13:25] Christian: In any case, I have to say that education is an extremely central concept for me,

[00:13:29] I'm also very strict about that, so I'm even strict when people post on Facebook or

[00:13:33] post somewhere in a fantasy language or just completely ignore everything linguistically,

[00:13:39] what's going on, I'm quite strict about that, because for me that's a central concept

[00:13:44] and if it has become uncool in certain scenes, "No, education is not that important",

[00:13:47] I see it completely [unintelligible]. - Boris: Now I have another quantity question. Now yesterday fits in

[00:13:53] Innsbruck with your book that you mentioned earlier, "Das Glühen im Dunkeln", at

[00:13:58] a book presentation at Kult, which I also thought was great, because it was also such a

[00:14:04] cultural venue in Innsbruck that has a very special character. Today you're on stage with

[00:14:11] "House of Pain". How many gigs do you have a year, all in all? - Christian: I can't really say right now

[00:14:18] summarize it like that, it's definitely become less, because I count the music as well, so

[00:14:22] There were phases when I think I had a bit more energy because I was younger. There were phases where I really

[00:14:27] had two bands that were fully active, so I was really touring, plus the radio work, plus still

[00:14:34] print media back then. It's a bit too much for me now, but yes, I can't really put it into

[00:14:39] numbers, but there's always something coming in, including exciting lectures or readings,

[00:14:44] in addition, it's quite a lot. - Boris: Do you still have the energy to look at things yourself

[00:14:50] on evenings that you go to concerts? Of course you go to the movies in between, that's clear, right?

[00:14:54] Christian: I see the movies at press screenings, which are absurdly always in the morning, they're around nine

[00:15:01] or nine thirty, I see very bad movies at that time, which then somehow resonate the whole day.

[00:15:06] Yes, so cinema is definitely still important, so I also go to film festivals and watch

[00:15:10] watch things there. Concerts are becoming less and less, I have to be honest, because I'm at the

[00:15:16] next day I have another long day where I have to do a lot and work,

[00:15:20] it's become less, I've become very careful in my selection.

[00:15:24] Boris: Only the most important ones? - Christian: Yes, so in the past - Boris: Important for you. - Christian: I used to be so fanatical, so when

[00:15:28] now two cool bands have played in Vienna, of course I have to see both of them in one evening,

[00:15:32] I rushed to the second band too, that's over. So I also have to say that the music

[00:15:37] in general, not my own, but basically music has fallen behind a bit

[00:15:41] because it's not possible to be up to date in all areas, you can't tear yourself apart

[00:15:46] and I just try to stay completely on point cinematically and follow everything that's going on

[00:15:52] happens or to follow a lot of things and that doesn't work out, then literature and music just go

[00:15:57] sometimes fall behind a bit. - Boris: Yes, well, I think we've got a good impression

[00:16:02] who Christian Fuchs is, thank you very much for that. - Christian: Thank you very much. - Boris: Finally, I always have

[00:16:07] the question, do you have a book tip for our listeners? - Christian: Yes, I have a non-fiction book tip,

[00:16:13] so I also come to novels less and less often due to all these activities, a genre that I

[00:16:18] love, an area that I love, but which has become very rare, but non-fiction books in any case

[00:16:23] still, there's a book by a German cultural theorist Jens Balzer, he's already written a lot of

[00:16:28] books who is somewhere between politics and pop culture, and he has written a book

[00:16:33] called "After Woke", and "woke" has become such a central term, from right-wing political

[00:16:38] side such a hate term, in the left scene people argue about this term and

[00:16:44] Jens Balzer has an interesting approach, because he actually comes from this woke movement and the

[00:16:49] basically finds it interesting or likes it or this whole political correctness, but

[00:16:55] the whole thing has now become too much, so to speak, and he also criticizes the excesses in terms of

[00:17:00] now to political situations, worldwide and the Gaza war and so on, where everyone is tearing each other apart

[00:17:05] each other and he gathers the worst excesses, so to speak, and then also tries,

[00:17:10] and it's very rare because we're in such a dystopian time to find positive moments,

[00:17:15] how could we develop that further so that everyone isn't fighting all the time and so that you

[00:17:19] not leave this term completely to right-wing extremists, so he's trying to be a little bit

[00:17:23] utopian and with a positive spirit to shed light on this term, but at the same time

[00:17:27] to criticize the fact that a few people have blown a fuse. [laughs]

[00:17:31] Boris: Yes, great, thank you very much.

[00:17:33] Christian: Thank you.

[00:17:34] Thank you.

[00:17:35] Boris: I'm looking forward to tonight and ... - Christian: I'm really looking forward to it too.

[00:17:37] Boris: Thank you.

[00:17:38] [Outro music]

[00:18:01] [Voice Boris] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the

[00:18:07] Audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Voice Boris]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:25] [Intro music] Shelly: Hello and welcome to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:30] And today for the first episode of Tea Time. My name is Shelly - Jaci: and my name is Jaci -

[00:00:36] and in Tea Time we talk about internet culture, trends and phenomena around books, literature, reading and we drink tea.

[00:00:46] Jaci: So basically what we always do at work. [Shelly: Exactly.

[00:00:50] Jaci: And what is our first tea time about today? We were thinking at the beginning of the year, what do we want to read this year?

[00:00:59] So what are the books that we have on our list for this year?

[00:01:04] And that's why it just made sense for us to make a sequel to our TBR.

[00:01:10] For those of you wondering what a TBR is, dear Shelly has picked out a definition.

[00:01:15] Shelly: So TBR, pronounced in English, or SUB ["sub"]: the pile of unread books or this TBR: To be read,

[00:01:25] refers to the list of books that are unread on the bookshelf or waiting on the eReader.

[00:01:31] And you can imagine this now, really physically, as a pile of books that is either on the back shelf or somewhere else on the shelf.

[00:01:42] And they don't just have to be books that you've already bought, they can also be books that you've borrowed from the library or borrowed from friends.

[00:01:51] And you hope that you manage to read them before you have to return them or before you buy new books. [Jaci laughs]

[00:02:00] I personally have never gotten together to read all the books I have before I get something new.

[00:02:07] But it works a bit better with borrowing because I know I have to return it.

[00:02:12] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:02:13] And I put the pressure on myself, that's really finished reading.

[00:02:16] And as [laughs] I was looking it up, this definition, because we want to be a bit professional about it, I came across, you know, Urban Dictionary.

[00:02:28] because I thought to myself: TBR is a term coined by the internet and people like to search for modern youth terms on Urban Dictionary.

[00:02:38] And on Urban Dictionary there's an entry for TBR that doesn't refer to the "To be read" list, but to the "Taco to Breath" ratio. [Jaci laughs]

[00:02:48] So how many tacos you can devour in one breath.

[00:02:53] So as a little smirk to start, but I thought I'd throw that in.

[00:02:57] Jaci: [laughing] That would be a really cool topic [unintelligible].

[00:03:01] Shelly: "Taco to Breath" ratio, really.

[00:03:03] Jaci: Okay, that's going to be our lunch break self-experiment.

[00:03:06] Shelly: Exactly.

[00:03:07] But that's not what we're going to talk about today, we're really going to talk about the books that we want to read.

[00:03:12] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:03:13] And then maybe the question comes up when you have all these books scattered all over your apartment or they're still in the library or even in the bookstore.

[00:03:23] How do you have an overview of what you want to read?

[00:03:27] And I personally have Goodreads, which is like Instagram for book lovers, where you can track your reading success and create your own bookshelves, books that you've read.

[00:03:42] Or books that you want to read.

[00:03:45] That's the "Want to Read" list and it's really long for me.

[00:03:50] I don't even know how long I have to scroll until I get to the end of the list.

[00:03:54] And in addition to that, whenever I go to the bookstore and can't buy all the books that interest me, I always take photos of these books and then have my own album on my cell phone.

[00:04:08] Or hundreds of photos of books that I would also like to read. [laughs]

[00:04:13] And that's how I try to get an overview.

[00:04:16] But it's not easy and working in the library with even more great books doesn't make it any easier.

[00:04:21] Shelly: Yeah, that's true.

[00:04:22] Jaci: How do you keep track, Shelly?

[00:04:24] Shelly: I don't have an overview. [laughs]

[00:04:26] I don't really have an overview.

[00:04:29] I only have an overview for this episode - really inauthentic, actually -

[00:04:32] I've just written down what was on top of my head for this episode.

[00:04:36] But I think I've summarized it in a very structured way and I think I could actually continue that, because that way I actually have an overview of what I want to read.

[00:04:45] Jaci:I highly recommend Goodreads, it's really good.

[00:04:48] Shelly: Yeah, or I, [Jaci laughs] just in terms of library books, I like to make these watch lists in our OPAC.

[00:04:56] Jaci: Yeah, that's right.

[00:04:57] Shelly: And where I get most of my inspiration is from our publisher previews and also TikTok and Bookstagram, so Booktok and Bookstagram.

[00:05:10] I also have the new releases of the later hour, not hour [Jaci laughs], minute, which I will then present.

[00:05:19] But I've actually sorted it by genre for now, something like that.

[00:05:25] Jaci: I'm not that organized.

[00:05:27] Shelly: Well.

[00:05:28] Jaci: Well. [Shelly laughs]

[00:05:29] Goodreads doesn't give me that option.

[00:05:31] Okay, and we want to talk today about, so we tried to narrow it down, but of course as bookworms, it's very hard to limit books.

[00:05:42] Which is why we've now picked out our top 5 from our TBR list that we want to try to read in 2025, plus the new release we're most excited about in 2025.

[00:05:58] Shelly: Plus the recommendation, [Jaci laughs] which Jaci has at the end.

[00:06:01] Jaci: Right, so our TBR list gets even longer after this episode, but we're excited.

[00:06:08] Shelly: We're excited.

[00:06:09] Let's see what happens.

[00:06:10] Jaci: What will!

[00:06:11] Right, please, Shelly.

[00:06:13] Why don't you start?

[00:06:14] Shelly: So my genre where I have the most book TBR is actually the fantasy genre.

[00:06:25] And you're pretty much partly to blame for that [Jaci cheers, laughs] or actually to blame for it, because Jaci recommended it to me a few weeks ago, that was still 2024, you recommended it to me or forced it on me -

[00:06:38] Jaci: [at the same time] I've been recommending that to you ever since I've known you. [laughs]

[00:06:41] Shelly: Yeah, I've been ignoring you until now. [Jaci laughs]

[00:06:43] And now I thought I'd give fantasy another chance, because I haven't really gotten along that well with fantasy, because the worldbuilding gets too steep for me most of the time.

[00:06:55] But she said that if you want a gentle introduction to fantasy, then read "The Realm of the Seven Courts" by Sarah J. Maas.

[00:07:02] No sooner said than done, I'm now on the third book and this series is on my TBR for 2025 because of course I want to finish it.

[00:07:11] And because I have to wait for the fourth book, or the third, no, the fourth book, I started "Throne of Glass" at the same time.

[00:07:21] Another series by Sarah J. Maas, which was recommended to me by my dear colleague.

[00:07:26] And exactly, so these two fantasy series are on my TBR.

[00:07:31] Jaci, don't you want to explain very briefly what they're about, because you've also got me.

[00:07:36] Jaci: So very briefly, I don't know if that's possible.

[00:07:38] Shelly: Yes, you can.

[00:07:39] Jaci: By the way, that's also the book series that I wrote my bachelor thesis on.

[00:07:43] So I could talk about it for hours.

[00:07:45] But in a nutshell, it's a YA, for teenagers or young adults actually, a fantasy series in which the world in which it takes place is divided into two parts,

[00:07:59] into the world of the "fae", which are such elvish, immortal, beautiful, magical creatures, and the humans - boring. [Shelly laughs]

[00:08:11] And it actually happens in the first volume that a young woman called Feyre, who lives in the human realm, so she's human,

[00:08:21] in which the realm of the "Fae" comes by unfortunate coincidence and then lives in this realm and has to overcome all her prejudices, that she actually has to grow up with it,

[00:08:31] that as a human she must hate the "Fae".

[00:08:33] And over the course of the book, so it's a romantic story, it's not a spoiler now, you realize that within the first 100 pages,

[00:08:39] She falls in love with a "fae" and becomes embroiled in many adventures and trials and blows of fate.

[00:08:46] And yes, that's the first book. And the second, third, fourth, fifth volumes get even better and you can't put it down.

[00:08:54] Shelly: That's right. Well, I was skeptical at first with the first book, I thought to myself, boah, if I were 13 now, it would really pick me up,

[00:09:02] but now I'm 10 years older and I thought, hmm, I don't know now,

[00:09:06] Now I'm on the third book and I'm thinking, that's the sh-!

[00:09:09] That's what I wanna read. [both laugh]

[00:09:13] Jaci: Exactly. Can I jump in for a second because I also have a fantasy series that I want to

[00:09:18] want to read this year? - Shelly: [at the same time] I'd love to, please.

[00:09:19] Jaci: Unfortunately, I haven't quite jumped on that bandwagon yet. It's "Fourth Wing" by Rebecca Yarros and I already have the first and second volumes on the shelf at home,

[00:09:31] but I haven't managed to read them yet and I don't know exactly what they're about because I don't want to spoil myself with the books,

[00:09:38] but I know that there are dragon riders in it and that the main character, I think her name is Violet, goes to a magical college and is trained as a dragon rider there.

[00:09:50] And I'm very ready, so I'm looking forward to it.

[00:09:53] And the first volume "Fourth Wing", "Iron Flame", is the second volume and the third volume whose name I don't know now, I think "Onyx Storm" [both at the same time] has just come out,

[00:10:04] I think last week ... Shelly: 21.

[00:10:06] Yeah, I know that, because then I went to the bookstore with my colleague last week during my lunch break and I bought it with her.

[00:10:14] Jaci: Yeah, just and she's promoting it to me now, the new coworker, that I need to read it and like I said, it's on my TBR for this year.

[00:10:22] Shelly: Yeah, perfect. You said dragon riders, keyword, I also have a book in fantasy that I want to finish, I'm halfway through,

[00:10:32] kind of left it months ago because it got really complicated, you'll probably have to start over.

[00:10:38] This is "The Priory of the Orange Tree", so I think "The Monastery of the Secret Tree" in German.

[00:10:45] And it's about a giant dragon from the past threatening to haunt the world again and in order to avert this danger,

[00:10:52] the empires of the West and the East must pull together despite their different worldviews.

[00:10:58] And that is no easy task. While in the West all dragons are despised and the royal family is at the center of the faith,

[00:11:06] in the East, dragons are revered as divine beings. So there is a certain discrepancy.

[00:11:11] And that begs the question: Can we succeed in uniting these realms?

[00:11:16] And I've just so read that off. [laughs]

[00:11:19] Jaci: That sounds very complicated.

[00:11:22] Shelly: It's totally complicated. The names are very complicated. This world building is brutal and it's an enormously thick book.

[00:11:30] So yeah, we'll see if I can get through it, but it's definitely a resolution for me to finally finish reading it,

[00:11:36] so that I can put it on my shelf and never have to look at it again.

[00:11:39] Jaci: Good luck.

[00:11:40] Shelly: Thank you.

[00:11:41] Jaci: I have a really, really big book on my list too.

[00:11:44] And that's "A Little Life" by Jana ...

[00:11:48] Hanya Yanagihara.

[00:11:51] I'm very sorry that you just said that so badly.

[00:11:54] But "A Little Life", which our other colleague has been recommending to me for as long as I've known her.

[00:12:01] And I've been borrowing the book from her at home for two years now.

[00:12:05] I promise I'll get it back to you soon when I've read it!

[00:12:08] And I don't know exactly what it's about.

[00:12:11] I know it's an extremely sad and tragic book,

[00:12:15] that it's about four friends who move to New York after college, during college, for college.

[00:12:23] Shelly's reading it right now, so she can give more info right now.

[00:12:27] But I don't know how deep we're going to go, it's a very thick book.

[00:12:30] Shelly: It's a very thick book and I've been reading it for, I think, a year and a half.

[00:12:35] It's, so I think it hits all the triggers that you can hit.

[00:12:40] It's, so I've read, "it goes to the darkest places that literature can venture into

[00:12:46] and always breaks through to the bright light".

[00:12:49] So it's really, really tragic this book.

[00:12:53] It's called "A Little Life" and "A Little Life".

[00:12:56] And it's about the lifelong friendship between four men in New York,

[00:13:00] who met in college.

[00:13:02] And at the center of the plot is Jude St. Francis.

[00:13:06] He's brilliant, more enigmatic [both laugh] reading off ...

[00:13:12] And is the charismatic figure at the center of the group.

[00:13:15] "A self-sacrificing, loving and at the same time inwardly broken man.

[00:13:20] And the friends are sucked deeper and deeper into Jude's dark, painful world."

[00:13:26] And it's just really like that, there is then in the [unintelligible], this plot is actually very chronological.

[00:13:31] But then there are always time jumps into Jude's past.

[00:13:35] Some of the things that happened there, it's like, so I'm actually in a,

[00:13:39] When I read it right now, I'm crying in one go because it's so bad.

[00:13:44] But at the same time it's so, so incredibly poetic and beautifully written,

[00:13:49] that I don't want to put it down.

[00:13:51] But then I always need a few months break in between,

[00:13:54] because I just can't stand it.

[00:13:55] So that's real, I've never had that with a book before.

[00:13:57] And I really want to finish it, if that happens this year.

[00:14:00] I've put it on my TBR once now, [Jaci laughs] but I don't want to force myself to do it,

[00:14:04] because it really gets to me.

[00:14:05] Jaci: Yeah.

[00:14:06] Well, I've just heard that it takes a lot out of you and I thought,

[00:14:08] I must be at the right stage in my life to be doing really well, so to speak,

[00:14:13] that it doesn't drag me down too much.

[00:14:15] That was also the case this year ... i'm finishing my master's thesis, I'm done with my studies,

[00:14:18] then I thought to myself, I'm doing well, I can read this then.

[00:14:21] Shelly: Yeah, it's definitely not a book you can recommend to everyone,

[00:14:25] especially if you don't know the person.

[00:14:27] That's what the colleague said too, you have to be careful.

[00:14:30] Jaci: But I'm looking forward to it.

[00:14:32] Well, I'll suffer, but I'll look forward to it, as they say in Harry Potter.

[00:14:37] Well, and then I was ... talked about two books first,

[00:14:42] five we wanted to talk through.

[00:14:44] Then very briefly, another book that I still want to read,

[00:14:47] is "The Secret Service of Tea and Treason" by India Holton.

[00:14:52] And I read a book by this author last year,

[00:14:56] called "The Lady of Wisteria Society". [red. note: "The Wisteria Society of Lady Scoundrels"]

[00:15:00] And that was wonderfully funny.

[00:15:03] It's about witches, but they don't call themselves witches,

[00:15:06] but as pirates and flying around with their houses.

[00:15:08] And it sounds extremely abstract, but it's so funny. [Shelly laughs]

[00:15:12] And it's extremely British humor and I'm always up for that.

[00:15:16] And in this second book that I'm about to read by her,

[00:15:19] is about two spies, a female spy and a male spy,

[00:15:24] who work together on one thing

[00:15:28] and have to overcome pirates, witches and a fake wedding,

[00:15:35] to save the Queen.

[00:15:38] And that's extremely dramatic, I think, and I'm really looking forward to

[00:15:41] this book because I think it's going to be very exciting. Maybe I'll read it after A Little Life,

[00:15:44] that I feel better. [laughs] A classic has also made it onto my list. And that is

[00:15:51] "Little Men" by Louisa May Alcott. That's the sequel to or the second part, or

[00:15:57] I don't know how to call it, the sequel to "Little Women" by the same author. [Shelly: No, really?]

[00:16:01] Where it's about the daughters of Joe March, as it is now Joe Bear, who at the end of

[00:16:10] "Little Women" marries this professor. And this school opens for young people,

[00:16:15] for boys and girls. And it's all about her two sons and how they're going to be in this

[00:16:22] school and what their lives are like. And you didn't know that there was this book,

[00:16:26] I saw it by chance in a bookstore and I was really excited and I love "Little Women".

[00:16:31] And that's why I have to read it now, in this second part. Because there's no such thing,

[00:16:35] that you don't hear about that, that... Did you know that? - Shelly: No, I didn't know that.

[00:16:38] I love "Little Women" too, that's a real comfort book, I think. And hey,

[00:16:42] you have to tell me what that was like. Because if it's good, I'll read it.

[00:16:45] What I still have on my TBR is, I want to dip a little bit more into the crime genre,

[00:16:53] because a lot of people just want to come and get advice on crime fiction and it's always

[00:16:58] a bit if you haven't read it yourself ... and ... I would like to ... at least

[00:17:03] the people I know that I know a bit more about it. And I would like to start now

[00:17:09] with Fitzek, there's supposed to be a new one coming out and that fascinated me a bit because the

[00:17:13] cover is so cool. - Jaci: [in ominous voice] "The Calendar Girl". - Shelly: "The Calendar Girl." And it's about... so it's about,

[00:17:21] that a, eleven years ago a baby was adopted, Alma is her name, and the circumstances of that

[00:17:28] adoptions are somewhat mysterious, because there are, so these circumstances are kept strictly under wraps

[00:17:35] kept strictly under wraps in the adoption file, but it is noted that if the parents are identified

[00:17:40] must not come to light under any circumstances, because the mother is at risk of death. And now it is

[00:17:47] that this child, Alma, has a life-threatening illness and urgently needs a bone marrow donation

[00:17:53] and her adoptive mother Olivia Rauch is then on a desperate search for her biological parents

[00:18:01] and comes across [a psychologist specializing in] violent crime and the legend of the calendar girl.

[00:18:07] In other words, a young woman who once withdrew to a secluded cottage in the Franconian Forest at Christmas time

[00:18:13] and was haunted by a psychopath who forced her to make a calendar,

[00:18:18] to open an Advent calendar of gray. So there seems to be a connection.

[00:18:23] I haven't read it yet. I'll read it, when that happens, I don't know, maybe

[00:18:27] so October, November, where it gets a bit scarier, the mood, it's not a summer read now

[00:18:32] for me, I have to say, I have to time it for now. - Jaci: Oh god, that sounds awful. I think,

[00:18:36] I'm scared just hearing that. I can't do that at all. I still have

[00:18:40] forgot one last book. Oh, then I've got my fives full and that's "King of Wrath" by Ana Huang

[00:18:46] and that's a whole series now, because the sixth volume is also coming out this year, just came out

[00:18:51] came out and I don't think it's a coherent story as far as I've seen.

[00:18:58] I think it's always about the same principle. They're romance novels or steamy romance novels,

[00:19:07] that's what they're called. The first volume is about a trillionaire in America who is forced,

[00:19:16] to marry the daughter or heiress of a large corporation because of technology and no idea,

[00:19:22] what all. So it's this "forced engagement", which is a very popular trope, so this

[00:19:29] "forced engagement". The two have never met before and then they always meet again at

[00:19:36] some gala or something and they know they're engaged, but they don't really know each other

[00:19:40] and then it's all about how they get to know each other and I don't know whether they'll get married or not,

[00:19:45] so I'm curious. But it's definitely going to be hot, I think. And maybe

[00:19:51] I might read it after "A Little Life". I think that'll make me feel better too. - Shelly: [laughs] The series would like

[00:19:56] I actually want to start that series too. You'll have to tell me how it is. - Jaci: Yeah. Shelly: Good and I have one more, a classic

[00:20:04] and that's "Dracula" by Bram Stoker, because I was at the movies the other day and watched "Nosferatu".

[00:20:10] Jaci: Oh God. - Shelly: Did you know that Nosferatu is actually Dracula? - Jaci: Yes. - Shelly: And that it's just the name

[00:20:18] that's been changed, the setting, where it's set. And I think time or is time even

[00:20:24] the same. Something, he only made very subtle changes, the director and then he

[00:20:28] also had to face a court case, because the descendants of Bram Stoker totally washed up

[00:20:36] and said, that's somehow, yes, okay, that has something to do with copyright. [Jaci laughs]

[00:20:41] And they actually won and all of the copies of the first Nosferatu movie were actually made

[00:20:47] copies had to be burned. So they saved a few and that's why the movie still exists now.

[00:20:52] Jaci: Okay. - Shelly: And it goes, so, "Dracula is the most famous literary creation of the vampire material and the lawyer

[00:21:02] Jonathan Harker discovers at Count Dracula's castle in Transylvania that he can be a vampire at night

[00:21:09] mischief at night. Harker follows Dracula to England, where the Count is looking for new victims,

[00:21:14] Harker's fiancée Minna." And fun fact, Bram Stoker didn't want this story about Dracula at first

[00:21:21] in Transylvania, but in Styria. - Jaci: [laughs] Okay. - Shelly: Then changed his mind.

[00:21:28] But I think Styria is a pretty good setting for that. -jaci: [laughs] I think it's pretty creepy too, yeah.

[00:21:32] Shelly: Yeah, especially because you can drive like three hours one way and you're still in the

[00:21:36] Nix. - Jaci: Then you're in Burgenland a few times ...

[00:21:39] Shelly: Even scarier. [both laugh]

[00:21:43] No, hey, stop shaming the state! - Jaci: [laughing] That's what you said.

[00:21:48] Exactly. Okay, "Dracula" is cool too. I've only seen that movie with Luke Evans. I see emptiness

[00:21:55] in your eyes. - Shelly: [laughs] I don't know who Luke Evans is right now.

[00:21:59] Jaci: Gaston on "Beauty and the Beast" in the remake. - Shelly: Sorry!

[00:22:06] Jaci: Okay, so we're pretty far along in our episode. I would very, very briefly just

[00:22:12] the titles of two or three new releases that we want to read so that the readers - the listeners*

[00:22:18] inside have a plan of what's coming and what we want to do. Okay, I have a title from Emily

[00:22:26] Henry, who's quite a well-known author now, for example "Clovers" or "Happy Place" and

[00:22:38] her next book is called "Great Big Beautiful Life" and it's about two authors who meet

[00:22:46] and it's also always a romance novel, so with Emily Henry it's just always with a lot of humor

[00:22:50] comes out on April 22nd and then there's one that just has a title,

[00:22:57] really appealed to me and it's called "Medievally Blonde",

[00:23:02] so to speak, by Kate Jacobs and it's about a princess who is not rescued by a

[00:23:10] prince and is kind of offended by that and goes to a military academy to defend herself

[00:23:15] and it becomes a retelling of the movie "Legally Blonde". - Shelly: [laughs] Medievally Blonde.

[00:23:23] Jaci: Exactly. And I think that's really great and that's why I'm looking forward to this book, it's coming out on the 15th.

[00:23:28] 07. Yes, and the cover looks great too, so exactly. These two tips from me,

[00:23:34] Shelly please. - Shelly: And I was on Booktok and Bookstagram as I teased earlier and

[00:23:41] did a little research on what the hyped new releases are going to be this year

[00:23:46] and came across "Onyx Storm", the book by Rebecca Yarros, who writes the Fourth Wing series

[00:23:55] and, as I said, the third volume was published on January 21. Then from

[00:24:03] Ali Hazelwood, who also wrote "The Love Hypothesis", i.e. "The Theoretical Improbability"

[00:24:09] of love", has a new book coming out in February, which is soon, I haven't written down the date right now

[00:24:15] in February, [Jaci: That's enough for us], and it's called "Deep End", "The Inevitable Improbability of Love".

[00:24:22] Okay, it's a sports romance, it's about a high diver Scarlett who was badly injured,

[00:24:30] her jump on the last one or something, I don't know exactly, I haven't figured that out yet, [Jaci laughs]

[00:24:34] she's very traumatized by it and also thinks she doesn't have time for relationships,

[00:24:39] then she meets Lucas, he's a swimming ace from Stanford and it's kind of

[00:24:47] spongy description I think, it's an arrangement that they make that somehow benefits both of them

[00:24:53] that benefits both of them and then it puts them in a dangerous vortex, a love vortex,

[00:25:00] and it gets steamy like never before, it was the very first sentence in the - Jaci: Right away on my TBR. [laughs] - Shelly:

[00:25:08] Exactly, steamy continues with Ana Huang, who Jaci has already said she wants the book

[00:25:16] "King of Wrath" by her and now in March the fifth volume of this "King of" series is coming out

[00:25:21] and Ana Huang, by the way, is the author of the "Twisted" series, if you know her,

[00:25:28] which has gone very, very viral and this "King of" series deals thematically with the seven

[00:25:35] Deadly sins. - Jaci: Ahhh! - Shelly: Yes. Envy ... - Jaci: Pride, yeah, okay now that makes sense, oh thank you. Shelly: So the

[00:25:42] Deadly Sins personified [Jaci: Totally cool.] Right, that's coming in March, like I said. Then Lauren Asher,

[00:25:50] that's the author of the "Dreamland Billionaires" series, doesn't ring a bell, really? That's so "erotic" too

[00:25:57] Genre ... ah, somehow that's just smut I just realized [Jaci laughs] ... I'm sorry, but I have something else.

[00:26:04] In any case, Dreamland Billionaires is about billionaire heirs, so they have

[00:26:12] an empire that when I read it, the Dreamland empire, which made me very

[00:26:18] reminded me of Disneyland and Disney [Jaci laughs] and three brothers and their love stories, so

[00:26:27] their relationships and it's very steamy and it's just nice to read in between,

[00:26:33] I quite liked it. - Jaci: It's the summer read before Sebastian Fitzek. [laughs] - Shelly: Yes, that's the summer reading, and the book is coming in August

[00:26:42] 3 is coming out in August, the third volume in the series. So, let's continue with Suzanne Collins, you know her

[00:26:49] from the "Hunger Games", i.e. "The Hunger Games", and the book "Sunrise on

[00:26:56] the Reaping", which is also set in the "Hunger Games" world and tells the story of Maymitch, so

[00:27:03] we know "A Ballad of Songbirds in Snakes", which I think came out last year or last year

[00:27:07] came out, which tells the story of Snow and now it's Haymitch's turn. - Jaci: Haymitch is, so

[00:27:13] it's all set before "Tribute to Panem", just so you can put it in chronological order and Haymitch is

[00:27:18] in Tribute to Panem the trainer of Katniss and Peeta during their games, so you know,

[00:27:25] who that is. - Shelly: Lastly, what I picked out that's very hyped right now is from

[00:27:30] Taylor Jenkins Reid, the author of "The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo" and "Daisy Jones in The Six."

[00:27:37] because that was very popular on Booktok - Jaci: And very popular with me [laughs] - Shelly: I loved the "Husbands" too

[00:27:44] liked it. Exactly and the new book of hers is called "Atmosphere" is coming out in June and it's set in

[00:27:52] the 1980s and it's about the space shuttle program. "The professor of physics

[00:27:59] and astronomy Joan answers NASA's call to be one of the first women in space, then begins this

[00:28:06] training to be an astronaut" and then it's really about friendships in this group of men

[00:28:13] and women who are then trained as astronauts. Then something happens

[00:28:20] something happens and everything changes in one fell swoop, which I took from the review and

[00:28:25] it must be really great. - Jaci: Very great. Yeah Taylor Jenkins Reid always writes excellent books,

[00:28:30] so I'm very excited. Jaci: Exactly, so very good recommendations, Shelly from you. Thank you so much

[00:28:34] for your intensive research. - Shelly: You're very welcome. It's been fun. - Jaci: How we can be happy,

shelly: [00:28:38] very great. And we'll just see over the course of the year how much we actually read from

[00:28:46] our long list. The idea would be that we do another episode at the end of the year,

[00:28:53] where we sort of review which books we've read from the list. We try to

[00:28:59] read some of them, of course, so that we can then talk about them in more detail and see if

[00:29:04] we liked them. Exactly and also like to hear in subsequent podcast episodes whether some of the

[00:29:11] books that we discuss there might be familiar from this episode of our TBR.

[00:29:16] Shelly: And so now you know our TBR, you know exactly what we want to read this year.

[00:29:25] Hopefully want to, would have, would have. But of course we would be very interested,

[00:29:31] what are you reading this year, what are you planning to read, so hop over to Instagram.

[00:29:37] There's a poll there today, when the episode goes online, and you're very welcome to take part

[00:29:43] and tell us what your books are this year, what you want to read and yes,

[00:29:51] a little exchange. We will then post it, collect inspiration, put it in the [unintelligible].

[00:29:56] Jaci: Exactly and if someone doesn't have any inspiration, then please subscribe to our literature newsletter

[00:30:03] where you get book recommendations every two months from our dear colleagues and exactly,

[00:30:10] if you have books that you would like to read, but we don't have them in the library,

[00:30:15] there's also the suggestion book. - Shelly: Exactly, that's because of the nonfiction information, so the one for

[00:30:23] the adult media and upstairs in the children's information is the one for the children's media and there you can

[00:30:28] you can just write in what you think would be an enrichment for our library.

[00:30:33] Jaci: Exactly, and then it might be purchased and then you can really use it from your TBR

[00:30:37] and read it. Exactly, on that note, thank you very much for listening.

[00:30:41] Ask your coworker in the poll on Instagram because we're very excited and

[00:30:46] we'll see you next time. Bye! [Outro music]

[00:30:48] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:31:18] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00]  [Stimme moduliert] Vorsicht, der Genuss dieses Podcasts kann zu vermehrten Bibliotheksbesuchen führen. [Stimme moduliert] [Intro-Musik]

[00:00:07]  Boris: Hallo und herzlich willkommen zurück beim "Vorwort - Kurz und Schmerzlos" heute mit Eva Biringer.

[00:00:28]  und mein Name ist Boris Schön. Ja Eva, schön, dass du da bist. Darf ich dich mal bitten, dich kurz vorzustellen?

[00:00:35]  Eva: Gerne, danke, dass ich da sein kann. Ich bin Eva Biringer, ich lebe in Wien und Berlin und bin Autorin und Journalistin.

[00:00:44]  In meiner journalistischen Tätigkeit schreibe ich über Reisen und Essen und Bücher, also schöne Sachen.

[00:00:51]  In meinen Büchern, das ist jetzt mein zweites, gerade erschienen, beschäftige ich mich eher mit schwierigen Themen.

[00:00:58]  Also am ersten ging es um Alkoholmissbrauch bzw. Abhängigkeit um eine eigene Geschichte und in meinem neuen Buch geht es um Frauen und Schmerz.

[00:01:07]  Boris: Mit deinem neuen Buch "Unversehrt" bist du ja auch heute bei uns zu Gast und es findet dann heute Abend um 19 Uhr

[00:01:14]  eine Veranstaltung statt in Kooperation mit Wissenschaft und Verantwortlichkeit, einem Verein mit dem wir schon länger zusammenarbeiten.

[00:01:21]  Darf ich dich mal fragen, seit du jetzt mit dem Buch unterwegs bist, wie geht es dir so? Was kriegst du für Feedback?

[00:01:28]  Was hattest du für Veranstaltungen?

[00:01:31]  Eva:Das ist jetzt glaube ich die vierte oder fünfte Veranstaltung. Die Premiere war in Berlin, dann war ich in Hamburg,

[00:01:39]  zwei Lesungen in Wien, dann ist es die fünfte. Ja, es ist wie beim ersten Buch, es ist natürlich schön, wenn es dann in die Welt entlassen wird

[00:01:48]  und auch wenn es schon wieder so gefühlt ewig her ist, dass ich es geschrieben habe und bisher sehr gutes Feedback bekommen.

[00:01:55]  Vor allem von Frauen, muss ich ehrlicherweise sagen, ich freue mich auch wenn es Männer lesen, aber es fühlen sich doch eher Frauen angesprochen.

[00:02:01]  Also sowohl Frauen, die mir bei Instagram schreiben oder E-Mails schreiben, als auch die nach der Veranstaltung zu mir kommen

[00:02:08]  und viele haben Schmerzgeschichte zu erzählen, also sei es jetzt Endometriose oder eine andere chronische Schmerzkrankheit

[00:02:16]  oder "nur" in Anführungszeichen Periodenschmerzen und viele sagen dann so: "Ich weiß was du meinst.

[00:02:22]  Also auch ich fühle mich nicht ernst genommen von meiner Ärztin oder von meinem Arzt und mich in meinem Schmerz nicht gesehen."

[00:02:27]  Also scheinbar trifft es schon einen Nerv.

[00:02:30]  Boris: Was war damals der ausschlaggebende Grund, dass du dir gedacht hast, du schreibst dein Buch über das Thema Frauen und Schmerz?

[00:02:36]  Eva: Erst hatte es nicht den feministischen Fokus, den es jetzt hat. Erst habe ich mich mit Schmerz an sich beschäftigt,

[00:02:43]  weil ich selber eine hartnäckige Sehnenscheidenentzündung hatte und gemerkt habe, wie sehr Schmerz in den Alltag eingreift,

[00:02:49]  auch wenn es jetzt keine super schlimmen Schmerzen waren, aber doch so, dass es mich eingeschränkt hat.

[00:02:56]  Dann wollte ich auch die Geschichte meiner Großmutter erzählen, die fast ihr Leben lang unter Schmerzen ohne erkennbaren Ursprung gelitten hat,

[00:03:04]  die auch nicht ernst genommen wurden und so hat sich das dann zusammengefügt.

[00:03:09]  Also Schmerz als Phänomen, als biologisches Phänomen, aber dann eben mit diesem feministischen Zugang.

[00:03:15]  Boris: Mir kommt ja vor, das Thema ist jetzt halt so ein paar Jahren, fängt das an so mehr in der Öffentlichkeit auszutauchen, oder?

[00:03:22]  Eva: Ja, auf jeden Fall. Also angefangen habe ich zu recherchieren und schreiben vor, na ja, eineinhalb Jahren wahrscheinlich.

[00:03:31]  Und jetzt in letzter Zeit sehe ich immer mehr das Thema. Klar ist natürlich auch die Brille, die ich jetzt sozusagen trage, also mein Blick.

[00:03:39]  Aber ich glaube schon, dass das Thema mehr und mehr in der Gesellschaft ankommt, was ja auch total wichtig ist.

[00:03:43]  Und gleichzeitig zum Beispiel meine Lektorin wollte erst, dass wir die Endometriose rausstreichen,

[00:03:48]  weil sie meinten: "Ach, das ist doch schon so bekannt, ist doch kein Thema mehr", so ungefähr.

[00:03:52]  Und selbst da stelle ich fest, dass viele nicht wissen, was Endometriose ist.

[00:03:56]  Boris: Du hast ja vorhin schon gesagt, das ist dein zweites Buch und sonst arbeitest du ja auch als, oder vor allem als Journalistin.

[00:04:03]  Wie ist das für dich so? Hast du da, ist eines von den zwei, die Tätigkeit, die dir mehr Freude bereitet oder die du spannend erfindest?

[00:04:12]  Oder bewegt sich das auf Augenhöhe? Wie kann man sich das vorstellen?

[00:04:15]  Eva: Auf Augenhöhe und ich glaube, das soll auch so bleiben, weil mir so Thema so schnell langweilig. [lacht]

[00:04:21]  Das heißt wenn ich jetzt nur ... Also nur journalistisch arbeiten, habe ich ja lange gemacht, das ist in Ordnung.

[00:04:26]  Aber selbst da habe ich ja so vielfältige Themenfelder.

[00:04:30]  Ich würde jetzt nicht nur über Essen schreiben wollen, ich würde auch nicht nur über Hotels oder auch nicht nur über Bücher,

[00:04:36]  obwohl ich das auch liebe, schreiben wollen.

[00:04:38]  Und gleichzeitig wenn ich mich nur mit diesen doch sehr schweren Themen beschäftige,

[00:04:43]  also zum Beispiel, vor allem jetzt beim neuen Buch, da hat es mich echt runtergezogen teilweise, was ich da so alles erfahren habe,

[00:04:49]  und ja, dachte, oh Gott, das ist alles so schrecklich.

[00:04:52]  Also das andere wiederum ist dann ein schöner Ausgleich.

[00:04:55]  Und ja, ich würde das als gleich wichtig beurteilen und auch so weiterhin machen wollen.

[00:05:01]  Boris: Ist es für dich ein anderer Prozess, wenn du an ein Buch herangehst, ein Buchprojekt, als wenn du ein Artikel schreibst?

[00:05:09]  Oder gibt es da, hast du da andere Herangehensweise? Der Schreibprozess ist ja doch, denke ich mal, zumindest länger an einem Buch? [lacht]

[00:05:17]  Eva: Ja.

[00:05:18]  Ich überleg gerade, ob ein Buch einfach ein sehr langer Artikel ist.

[00:05:22]  Also ich glaube, bei einem Roman wäre es komplett anders, habe ich noch nie versucht, dadurch, dass ich Sachbücher schreibe,

[00:05:28]  ähnelt die Recherche schon der eines Textes.

[00:05:31]  Gleichzeitig gibt es auch in beiden meiner Bücher autobiografische Anteile, die wiederum ja frei geschrieben sind.

[00:05:38]  Also das dann eher so ein freies Schreiben.

[00:05:41]  Ich genieße es schon am Buchschreiben, dass ich mal so alles andere ausblenden kann,

[00:05:47]  weil sonst besteht mein Job schon auch sehr viel aus Organisation. E-Mails und Sachen organisieren und Reisen planen.

[00:05:54]  Und mag ich gerne, aber umgekehrt finde ich es auch total schön, wenn einfach mal nur ein Projekt auf dem Tisch liegt, sozusagen,

[00:06:01]  und ich mich aus allem anderen mehr oder weniger rausziehen kann.

[00:06:05]  Boris: Nicht auf mehreren Baustellen gleichzeitig, so schön formuliert. [Eva lacht]

[00:06:09]  Du hast ja vorhin kurz gesagt, dass du auch über Gastronomie schreibst, also Gastrokritik.

[00:06:14]  Ich habe da ganz basale Fragen, aber - [Eva, lacht: Bitte, ja.] - suchst du die Lokale aus, die du testest,

[00:06:19]  oder kriegst du da redaktionell Vorschläge oder wie funktioniert so was?

[00:06:24]  Eva: Testen tu ich nur in Berlin für die Berliner Zeitung.

[00:06:27]  Das sind eigentlich immer meine eigenen Vorschläge. Nicht jeder wird

[00:06:31]  genommen, aber die meisten eigentlich schon. Und andere Texte sind dann eher

[00:06:37]  Portraits über Köchinnen, Köche oder irgendwelche Trendgeschichten. Und bei

[00:06:43]  Reisegeschichten, die oft auch einen kulinarischen Aufhänger haben, kommen die

[00:06:47]  Ideen eigentlich auch fast immer von mir. Also ich bin da schon glücklicherweise sehr

[00:06:52]  frei in der Auswahl. Und ja, es ist ein Traumjob, auf jeden Fall. [lacht]

[00:06:55]  Weil das ist sicher vielleicht auch eine nächste Frage gewesen wäre.

[00:06:58]  Boris: [beide lachen] Wär sie's gar nicht. Aber, nein, meine nächste Frage wäre eigentlich eher die, wie kann man

[00:07:03]  sich das vorstellen? Bestellst du einmal quer durch die Speisekarte? Oder gehst du

[00:07:07]  fünfmal hin? Oder wie läuft das? - Eva: Ja, lustigerweise habe ich genau darüber

[00:07:13]  einen Text kürzlich für die Berliner Zeitung und für den Standard geschrieben.

[00:07:16]  Wie das geht, so wie man als Gastrokrisikerin überlebt.

[00:07:22]  So ungefähr. Also, also muss ich sagen, ich mache das zum Glück nicht, also jeden Tag

[00:07:26]  sowieso nicht und auch nicht jede Woche. Also das konzentriert sich dann doch sehr

[00:07:29]  auf Berlin. Das heißt, es ist dann so geballt dort. Und in Wien koche ich eigentlich

[00:07:34]  fast immer selber und ja auch ganz anders als wenn ich essen gehe. Und wenn ich

[00:07:39]  essen gehe, dann nehme ich mir eigentlich immer jemanden mit, wenn es geht. Und dann, ich

[00:07:45]  muss sagen, dass ich da recht strikt bin. Also die Auswahl treffe ich. [lacht] Das heißt, es ist

[00:07:50]  auch immer pescetarisch, also kein Fleisch. Und ja, ich sag auch oft so

[00:07:56]  möglichst viel, also lieber kleinere Portionen, dass wir viel probieren können.

[00:08:00]  Wir nehmen die Reste auch immer mit, weil das ist mir schon auch wichtig, dass dann

[00:08:03]  nicht irgendwie groß Food Waste anfällt. Ja, und ansonsten einfach durchprobieren.

[00:08:08]  Boris: Die kleineren Portionen würden ja aber dann bedeuten, dass sie vielleicht sogar

[00:08:12]  schon wissen, dass du jetzt zum Testen hier bist. Ich habe also dieses Bild im

[00:08:16]  Kopf von "Brust oder Keule" mit Louis de Funès, der dann da irgendwie für den [unverständlich]

[00:08:20]  quasi da so agentenmäßig auftritt. So kann man sich das nicht vorstellen, oder?

[00:08:25]  Eva: Ja, ich klebe mir keine Bärtchen .. ankleben eh nicht, aber ... [Boris lacht]

[00:08:29]  Also ich glaube wirklich, dass Leute Verkleidung teilweise haben,

[00:08:33]  aber es ist so famous bin ich jetzt nicht. Also ich reserviere jetzt auch nicht

[00:08:40]  unter falschem Namen oder so. - Boris: [lacht] Für Meier. - Eva: Ich glaube so arg ist es dann doch nicht.

[00:08:47]  Ich kann mir schon vorstellen, dass manche dann auch checken, allein weil ich

[00:08:51]  mit meiner riesen Kamera komme und irgendwie so ein bisschen Aufstand ... [lacht]

[00:08:55]  Was heißt Aufstand? Aber so 1000 Sonderwünsche ... "Und können wir bitte dies, und das."

[00:08:59]  Dass vielleicht manche schon denkt, das ist zumindest ein Bloggerin.

[00:09:03]  Aber ja, so einen Kopf machen wir da eigentlich nicht drum.

[00:09:06]  Boris: Da ist vielleicht das Internetzeitalter dann ganz angenehm, weil es so viele Leute

[00:09:10]  gibt über so viele Sachen berichten, dass es dann vielleicht nicht bei diesen

[00:09:12]  Fokus gibt. - Eva: Voll. Und ich muss auch sagen, vor allem in Berlin sind es auch auf

[00:09:16]  Presse-Dinner, ehrlich gesagt. Also was auch, wo auch dann natürlich Kolleg*innen

[00:09:20]  hingehen und wo völlig klar ist, die Person ist von der Zeitung und die von

[00:09:24]  dem Medium. Also ja, so top secret ist es nicht.

[00:09:28]  Boris: Wie du ja vorher auch schon gesagt hast, du hast ja einen Artikel im Standard geschrieben.

[00:09:31]  Ich habe dann auch gelesen, über die unterschiedliche Lebenserwartungen von Gastrokritikern

[00:09:36]  zu Gastrokritikerinnen. Jetzt meine Frage: Wie geht es denn gesundheitlich

[00:09:41]  Severin Corti als der Standard-Testesser? - Eva: [lacht] Sehr gute Frage. Ich kenne ihn nicht

[00:09:47]  persönlich, muss ich zu meiner Schande gestehen. Ich möchte ihn unbedingt mal

[00:09:50]  kennenlernen. Also wenn du das hörst Severin Corti, bitte, bitte, bitte sag, wann wir

[00:09:54]  essen gehen. Ich glaube, er ist total witzig und ich höre immer, dass er sehr viel

[00:09:58]  bestellt. Also ich glaube, er bestellt wirklich so die ganze Karte. Wie viel

[00:10:01]  er davon isst, keine Ahnung, ob er sich auch Doggy Bags geben lässt. Wir wissen es

[00:10:06]  leider nicht. Vielleicht finde ich es raus und dann reiche ich die Info nach. [lacht]

[00:10:10]  Boris: Also ich habe mir heute ein Foto von ihm im Internet angesehen. Er wirkt so

[00:10:13]  gesundheitlich relativ stabil auf den Foto. [lacht] - Eva: Ja, ich glaube schon. Also auch gut, der geht

[00:10:19]  sich öfter essen, testen, also Restaurant testen als ich. Aber ich glaube, so wie

[00:10:24]  dieser New York Times-Gastrokritiker, der ja damals der Aufhänger für den

[00:10:28]  Artikel war, also ich glaube so extrem betreibt es niemand, der dann teilweise

[00:10:31]  in zwei Restaurants am Abend war und fast jeden Tag die Woche. Klar, dass man

[00:10:36]  daran zugrunde geht. Also das würde ich aber auch nicht wollen, da hätte ich

[00:10:39]  keine Freude mehr an meinem Job. - Boris: Ja, denke ich mir.

[00:10:44]  Ja, danke, die zehn Minuten sind eh schon vorbei. Zum Schluss habe ich wie immer

[00:10:49]  eine Frage. Hast du eine Literatur- oder einen Buchtipp für unsere Zuhörer*innen,

[00:10:53]  den du übergeben kannst? - Eva: Unbedingt. Also erst mal möchte ich auch noch eine

[00:10:58]  Lanze für Bibliotheken brechen, weil ich werde immer oder oft komisch ... weißt heißt

[00:11:02]  komisch, aber irritiert oder überrascht angesehen, wenn ich sage, dass ich mir

[00:11:06]  immer alles ausleihe. Also ich denke, das ist doch der beste Deal der Welt. Ja, du hast

[00:11:10]  einen Ausweis und es ist jedes Buch zu bestellen und kannst es wochenlang haben.

[00:11:15]  Also ich liebe Bibliotheken und gehe da ganz oft hin. Und mein, ich habe zwei

[00:11:19]  Buchtipps mitgebracht. Einmal von Ruth-Maria Thomas, das lese ich jetzt gerade,

[00:11:24]  "Die schönste Version". Da geht es um Partnerschaftsgewalt, also ein total

[00:11:30]  wichtiges Buch in Romanform. Auch sehr, ja, trifft einen, also mich trifft es ziemlich

[00:11:35]  auf eine sicher nachhaltige Art und ich glaube, es ist ein total

[00:11:39]  wichtiges lesenswertes Buch. Und dann von Teresa Bücker "Alle_Zeit", das ist ein

[00:11:45]  Sachbuch, in dem es um die Zeitpolitik geht. Also das Zeit eben nicht gleichverteilt

[00:11:52]  ist in unserer Gesellschaft oder ein sehr politisch aufgeladenes Thema ist.

[00:11:56]  Auch wieder mit einem recht feministischen Zugang, dass Frauen generell

[00:12:00]  weniger über ihre Zeit verfügen können als Männer, Mütter noch mehr als kinderlose

[00:12:04]  Frauen und so weiter. Also es ist ein total ja, Augenöffnendes Buch, was einen

[00:12:09]  sicher auch noch lange begleiten wird. - Boris: Ja, vielen herzlichen Dank und ich freue

[00:12:13]  mich jetzt schon sehr auf den heutigen Abend und auf ein spannendes Bühnengespräch.

[00:12:18]  Eva: Ich mich auch. Danke fürs Dasein.

[00:12:19]  [Outro-Musik]

[00:12:43]  [Boris spricht] S'Vorwort ist eine Produktion der Stadtbibliothek Innsbruck und Teil der

[00:12:49]  Stadtstimmen, dem Audiokanal der Stadt Innsbruck. [Boris spricht]

[00:00:00] [Voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [Voice modulates] [Intro music]

[00:00:07] Boris: Hello and welcome back to "Vorwort - Kurz und Schmerzlos", today with Paul Scheibelhofer.

[00:00:29] My name is Boris Schön. Paul, great to have you here. Paul: Hello.

[00:00:35] Boris: First of all, I would just like you to introduce yourself.

[00:00:40] Paul: Yes, I'm an assistant professor at the Institute for Educational Science at the University of Innsbruck

[00:00:47] and I'm responsible for critical gender studies.

[00:00:51] And again, the topic I spend most of my time on is men, masculinities,

[00:00:59] young, old, fathers in different life situations.

[00:01:03] Boris: The university website says that you work in the field of critical masculinity research

[00:01:09] and fatherhood research, among other things. Now I'm simply faced with the very banal question,

[00:01:16] what does that mean exactly? - Paul: Yes, many people are surprised that this exists.

[00:01:22] Critical masculinity research assumes that we still don't live in a society,

[00:01:29] where men and women have equal rights, but that men have more power, more resources,

[00:01:35] also in our society than women.

[00:01:38] And she now asks how this inequality affects men, their lives, their desires, their goals,

[00:01:47] on their ideas of what it means to be a man, but we also ask in the other direction,

[00:01:53] how what men do can reinforce and reproduce or perhaps change these unequal gender relations.

[00:02:03] Boris: So it's not just about the man as perpetrator, but also about the problems that a man has because of his masculinity?

[00:02:11] Paul: Yes, unfortunately, when we look at the issue of violence, for example, men are more often than average perpetrators.

[00:02:20] But that's an aspect of social reality and it's very wide-ranging when we look at gender relations.

[00:02:27] No, it's also about why, for example, boys' T-shirts often have the animals that go hunting printed on them

[00:02:36] and girls' T-shirts are more often printed with animals that are hunted.

[00:02:41] So it's about understanding how it actually works, that we become men in this society.

[00:02:48] And we are often perpetrators in some respects, but also victims, sometimes players,

[00:02:54] and sometimes we're also a fly in the ointment, we don't play by the rules that apply to men and that's where it gets exciting.

[00:03:02] Boris: Can you briefly define what "masculinity" is in some way?

[00:03:06] Or is it the whole spectrum that you've already touched on a bit?

[00:03:10] Paul: Well, I would say that there is no fundamental characteristic that is typically masculine per se.

[00:03:23] All the modern research actually shows that we can't go looking for something in the body

[00:03:32] and because they have a clear side of characteristics, THAT is what "masculinity" means.

[00:03:38] And if we don't have the body as the answer to what "masculinity" actually means, then it's actually us humans, us as a society.

[00:03:48] That is, what it means to be a man is what we define as a society.

[00:03:55] That changes, it's not the same at all times, for example when we look at our own grandfathers, their norms of masculinity, their ideas of what a man should be,

[00:04:05] is usually different from us.

[00:04:08] So obviously in a very short period in human history, let's say 50 to 70 years, there's been quite a lot of change.

[00:04:16] So it's probably society that says what's masculine and what's not.

[00:04:21] And there are a few characteristics that keep recurring, such as being more active than passive, more self-confident than doubtful.

[00:04:32] That's why they tend not to seek help, but rather to explain the world to others.

[00:04:38] So there are characteristics that we find again and again in books, in texts, in plays, in films.

[00:04:46] You can see what we think men are made of at the moment.

[00:04:49] Boris: Now I have a question:

[00:04:51] You're our guest on stage at the city library tonight as part of the presentation of Katharina Cipulka's "Solange" project.

[00:05:02] And you're supplementing this part from a male perspective, so to speak.

[00:05:09] Her project is about achieving equality, so to speak.

[00:05:15] How can masculinity research contribute to this?

[00:05:19] Can it explain things better, offer suggestions for solutions?

[00:05:24] Paul: Yes, I think so. On the one hand, we can look at the structures that lead to so little and so slow change.

[00:05:37] Or even regression in some cases.

[00:05:39] So the Court of Auditors has just calculated that the already very low number of men who take parental leave,

[00:05:48] that compared to 2020 - back then it was just under 5 percent in 2020 - that this has fallen again.

[00:05:56] So we can use our theories about what constitutes masculinity and what is then also rejected, for example unpaid work with children,

[00:06:07] that obviously still doesn't fit into our image of

[00:06:11] what a successful man does all day and all night. So our theories can

[00:06:16] I think on the one hand they can give us clues as to why there is so little change and so slow and

[00:06:23] it helps to take a focused look at men. Nevertheless, with the theories of

[00:06:29] gender and research and feminist research, but understandably this was often

[00:06:34] not looked at men so clearly and what we can also try to do is find out,

[00:06:41] yes, where are there changes, where is there something like "Caring

[00:06:46] Masculinity", in other words a masculinity that is not characterized by competition, devaluation, etc. [00:06:51

[00:06:51] but through care, nurturing, solidarity. In other words, I think we can also

[00:06:56] critical masculinity research to point out these ways in which changes are taking place and

[00:07:04] perhaps also support these processes. - Boris: Now I have another personal

[00:07:13] question, how did you come up with this topic or how did you become interested in this ... because you have to somehow

[00:07:18] studied before you started teaching it, what was your biographical history

[00:07:24] about it? - Paul: Yes, so somehow I got into gender studies almost by chance while studying sociology

[00:07:32] slipped into it. That started at the end of the 90s and back then all the seminars were actually

[00:07:39] women's studies when it came to gender studies. But I still found that extremely interesting

[00:07:46] but after a few years I realized that my mostly female

[00:07:52] fellow students, they had another benefit that I was missing and that was this

[00:07:57] personal involvement and I can remember that I was on a year abroad in Amsterdam

[00:08:03] and I even remember which bookstore, I went there once and

[00:08:08] I thought to myself, is there actually any gender research with a focus on men? And

[00:08:12] of course there is, if you look for it, and then I actually studied it myself

[00:08:16] taught myself, because my whole time at university there wasn't a single course on the subject of

[00:08:21] masculinity and then I actually started teaching it without ever attending it myself

[00:08:27] and fortunately things have changed a bit in the meantime and

[00:08:33] yes, I'm also pleased to be a part of the fact that masculinity research has also become

[00:08:38] being taught a bit more widely at universities. - Boris: In the course of your research activities, have there been

[00:08:45] or your acquisition of knowledge, was there ever a real "wow, aha" effect where you thought,

[00:08:51] I never thought about it like that? - Paul: I think that happened a lot. So I

[00:08:59] think that gender studies in particular, if we get involved in it, then it doesn't leave us

[00:09:04] cold and in the best case scenario, you don't come out of such an engagement with gender studies

[00:09:10] as the same person as when you went in. That's different from when I somehow write texts

[00:09:15] about geographical phenomena, I don't know what, I think. So at least for me it's like that,

[00:09:24] that there have often been moments that are a mixture of, maybe a

[00:09:31] being caught out a bit. "Aha, I didn't realize that." I might have been myself

[00:09:36] part of some ultimately problematic structures and then also often like this,

[00:09:45] well, maybe that's a bit pathetic, but it's also a way of being freed from such self-evident things.

[00:09:53] So this fundamental perspective that the way we live is not self-evident,

[00:10:01] that we actually produce this, this basic observation, that has me insanely fascinated by the

[00:10:10] chair. I had this suspicion the whole time I was growing up that

[00:10:19] this world doesn't have to be like this and that in such a sociological perspective with a

[00:10:26] focus on gender also showed me: "No, it can be done differently." That was on

[00:10:35] impressive on many levels and it's an ongoing process to find that out,

[00:10:43] what it all actually means. - Boris: Yeah, Paul, thank you so much for this totally

[00:10:47] exciting information and this conversation. Finally, as always, I have a question,

[00:10:52] do you have a book that you can recommend to our listeners? - Paul: Yes, so if you're interested in

[00:10:59] masculinity, then I currently recommend the book "Warum

[00:11:04] Feminism is good for men" by Jens van Tricht. This is a great activist who lives in

[00:11:11] Amsterdam is doing great things to somehow advance progressive masculinities

[00:11:17] and he has a lot of the knowledge that he has acquired, but also what he has learned in the

[00:11:24] in the course of all these workshops that he's been doing for years and other projects like that

[00:11:29] he has generated this knowledge, he has summarized it in this partly funny, partly also

[00:11:34] upsetting and really good to read book "Why feminism is good for men". - Boris: Thank you very much

[00:11:42] also for this tip and I'm looking forward to an exciting evening tonight. - Paul: Thank you. [Outro music]

[00:12:12] [Boris speaks] The foreword is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the

[00:12:18] Audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [Voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to increased library visits. [Voice modulates] [Intro music]

[00:00:07] Boris: So, hello and welcome back to the "Foreword - Short and sweet".

[00:00:28] Today with Katharina Cibulka. Yes, Katharina, good to have you here.

[00:00:33] Katharina: Thank you for inviting Boris.

[00:00:35] Boris: My name is, as you've already mentioned my first name, Boris Schön.

[00:00:39] And I would like to start by asking you to introduce yourself very briefly.

[00:00:44] Katharina: My name is Katharina Cibulka. I am a visual artist and filmmaker.

[00:00:50] I'm an Innsbruck native, returned after many years in Vienna and abroad.

[00:00:57] I'm here now because of the project "Solange".

[00:01:00] Boris: Exactly, and we have the pleasure of doing that tonight,

[00:01:04] even if the podcast will only be broadcast after this event,

[00:01:08] which I will be welcoming together with Tina Themel on the stage of the city library.

[00:01:14] And you will be presenting the book "Let's Go Equal - The Solange Project".

[00:01:21] So this is a kind of "showcase" of this work, is that right?

[00:01:26] Katharina: Exactly, the Solange book was created after 28 Solange networks.

[00:01:31] "Solange" is a participatory feminist art project

[00:01:36] and we play on scaffolding on building sites with nets that would be hanging there anyway.

[00:01:44] And we stitch feminist sentences into them.

[00:01:48] And they always start with "As long as ..." and end with "... i am a feminist.", "... i am a feminist."

[00:01:54] Boris: I think many of our listeners will be familiar with the project.

[00:01:58] It has already been presented very internationally.

[00:02:04] What is the core objective of the project for you or how did the idea of doing it come about?

[00:02:11] Katharina: Well, the core objective is definitely equality.

[00:02:14] I think that after so many centuries, men and women and all genders should meet as equals.

[00:02:22] And I really don't understand why that should be so difficult.

[00:02:25] And that's what I stand up for.

[00:02:27] And this project is about simply wanting to sensitize people where there is no equality.

[00:02:35] Boris: That means, in theory, there could be a point in the future where the project would no longer be necessary.

[00:02:43] Katharina: That would be the big goal, so to speak.

[00:02:45] There's an international report that looks every year to see how many years it will take.

[00:02:54] And we were already at 103 years [Boris laughs], and after Corona

[00:02:58] we're now back up to 148 years.

[00:03:01] So it will take that long.

[00:03:04] And when I look at the situation worldwide and I'm already experiencing this backlash,

[00:03:09] it will probably take much longer.

[00:03:14] And that's why I'm even more committed to ensuring that we keep our rights.

[00:03:20] Boris: Now besides the risk that you might not live to see the success you want this project to have in terms of social change,

[00:03:32] but would you have thought that the project would be so successful, at least in the present, in terms of perception and...

[00:03:39] Well, it's been presented very often and is doing the rounds internationally.

[00:03:43] Katharina: So at the beginning I started with the idea and of course I didn't think that it would have such a big...

[00:03:49] that it would have such an impact, such a big effect and also such a broad impact.

[00:03:54] I started with a network in Innsbruck, in a small project.

[00:03:59] And I noticed straight away that it moved a lot of people.

[00:04:03] And for many it's a kind of projection surface in public space.

[00:04:07] Because I think we all feel that something is wrong and that it's actually unfair.

[00:04:13] The women feel it anyway and the men, I would say, also feel that something is wrong.

[00:04:18] Some are trying to change, others are trying to get the old order back.

[00:04:24] So there's a tension there and these nets were good for that, because they hang in the public space and are a projection surface for many.

[00:04:32] And I think that's why we're being invited so much now, internationally, because it's a huge topic.

[00:04:39] Boris: You've already said before,

[00:04:41] that it should take longer at the moment after all these years, with all these setbacks,

[00:04:48] that are also happening socially, although we are trying to move forward.

[00:04:52] Are there things you can laugh about in this context or is it a serious matter?

[00:04:57] Katharina: Well actually, at the moment I feel more like crying.

[00:05:00] So I'm also thinking now with the election or re-election of Trump with all the

[00:05:06] election results here in Austria, you can already see that there is a very strong, conservative

[00:05:12] wave is sweeping over us and that really, really concerns me.

[00:05:15] Especially for the younger generation, because I think they're going to have a very difficult time,

[00:05:21] because the young women are very empowered because of the last decades and also very

[00:05:29] educated and they can no longer be pushed back.

[00:05:32] And I think it will be difficult for young men to find women because

[00:05:38] if they don't change and move with the times, then maybe they'll stay alone

[00:05:45] and I feel very sorry for the young men too.

[00:05:47] Boris: Yes, we are curious to see how the future will develop.

[00:05:51] Hopefully for the better.

[00:05:53] Katharina: Of course, I'm a total optimist, from that point of view.

[00:05:57] I always look at what's happening and I also see a lot of young people,

[00:06:03] who are really great role models for me now and who are already taking different paths

[00:06:10] go different ways.

[00:06:11] Boris: A completely different question, but one that is a bit obvious to me now:

[00:06:16] You're also a reader yourself at the city library in Innsbruck.

[00:06:20] What is important to you about libraries, or rather, what is perhaps important

[00:06:26] for you at the city library?

[00:06:27] It's not a very old project.

[00:06:30] It's only been around since 2018.

[00:06:31] Katharina: Well, I was just talking to my husband today about the fact that it's an incredible project

[00:06:36] great space for everyone and not just as a space for the books, but also

[00:06:42] for many, many people who sit here and read and when you walk past, you always see

[00:06:46] always see that there's a lot going on and also a lot of young people studying and learning here.

[00:06:51] And I think that's worked out really well, this idea and for me libraries are

[00:06:58] an infinite, huge treasure trove of knowledge anyway and even if we're online or in the

[00:07:06] digitally, in the di-... yes, we can access so much online, having a book in our hands is

[00:07:10] something very special and that's why I'm also very happy that we now have this

[00:07:14] show and have this book.

[00:07:17] My book "Let's Go Equal", because this project is so much more, that is, it's connected

[00:07:23] only "for so long", as long as there's a construction site and then it's gone and my great fear

[00:07:29] was that if I stopped in a few years, there would be nothing left of the project.

[00:07:33] And that's why a book is just a really nice document of all these endless crazy

[00:07:40] stories that we've experienced over the last six years.

[00:07:43] Boris: Yes, now I have one last question for our listeners.

[00:07:47] Do you have a tip, a book that you particularly like or that you can recommend?

[00:07:54] Katharina: Yes, of course, a very recent book by Franziska Schutzbach, for example, called "Die Revolution

[00:08:03] of Connectedness": How female solidarity is changing society and that is really

[00:08:10] quite a nice book, I would say, because it's about how

[00:08:17] we women can show more solidarity again and not always ask the question

[00:08:23] how do we get the men on board, but rather how do we get the women on board?

[00:08:26] boat.

[00:08:27] Because the big social changes have always happened when

[00:08:31] simply many women have come together.

[00:08:33] And that's a really nice thought for me, that we women are now simply joining forces

[00:08:40] together.

[00:08:41] Boris: Yes, thank you very much for talking to us.

[00:08:43] I'm looking forward to today's event and yes ... Katharina: [smiling] Let's go equal.

[00:08:49] Thank you.

[00:08:50] [Outro music]

[00:08:51] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the

[00:09:19] Audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [Voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to increased library visits. [Voice modulates]

[00:00:07] Jaci: Christmas edition, take one.

[00:00:10] [sings] ~ We wish you a merry Christmas, we wish you a merry Christmas, we wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year. ~

[00:00:19] Shelly: Beautiful. Jaci: Thank you. Shelly: Christina can use that as an intro.

[00:00:22] Jaci: [laughs] Welcome to our episode, which is entirely in my singing.

[00:00:26] Shelly: Yes, absolutely. [laughter]

[00:00:28] [Intro music] Shelly: Hello and welcome to the preface, the Innsbruck City Library podcast.

[00:00:48] My name is Shelly and across from me is Jaci and today it's going to be Christmas.

[00:00:55] Let's take this as an opportunity to talk about literature and movies about Christmas.

[00:01:04] So how has this traditional festival always been dealt with in literature and film?

[00:01:13] It has become a trope, so to speak, and has it changed anything?

[00:01:18] If so, what has changed in this time and what has remained the same in essence?

[00:01:24] Jaci: Exactly. Shelly: And then let's just go inside. [Jaci laughs]

[00:01:27] We thought about what's the first thing that comes to mind when we think about Christmas literature.

[00:01:35] And we both came to the conclusion that it was actually "A Christmas Story" by Charles Dickens.

[00:01:42] Everyone knows it and it was first published on December 19, 1843.

[00:01:50] Jaci: Perfect marketing team that it came out at Christmas time.

[00:01:55] Shelly: Yeah.

[00:01:56] Jaci: Even back then.

[00:01:57] Shelly: Always knew how to sell it well. [Laughs]

[00:01:59] And it was published under the original title "A Christmas Carol in Prose: Being a Ghost Story of Christmas".

[00:02:06] Jaci: That's a long title.

[00:02:08] You know what it's about right away. [laughs]

[00:02:10] Shelly: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:02:14] Jaci: And I mainly came up with this story, not from the original book, I've actually never read that.

[00:02:23] Shelly: You haven't?

[00:02:24] Jaci: No.

[00:02:25] Sorry, maybe I will, because we definitely have it in stock.

[00:02:29] Shelly: I have it in my private library.

[00:02:30] Jaci: On my library gnome. [both speaking in unison]

[00:02:34] I don't have a copy at home, so that would be a Secret Santa idea. [laughs]

[00:02:37] Little side info, there's another Christmas Secret Santa among the staff, and whoever drew Jaci,

[00:02:45] she would like to have the "Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens. [both laugh]

[00:02:48] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:02:49] But now, all joking aside.

[00:02:52] I know the story of the "Christmas Carol" from a Barbie movie.

[00:02:57] And it's actually the same principle, only with women.

[00:03:01] So Barbie is Ebenezer Scrooge and is haunted by drei ghosts and then comes draup with the idea that Christmas is really great and so on.

[00:03:09] And that's how I know the story. [laughs]

[00:03:11] And then a few years ago I actually watched the original or the first film version and it's really scary.

[00:03:17] So I don't find it very Christmassy, [laughs] I was very scared.

[00:03:21] But I understand the meaning of the story and Barbie did a great job.

[00:03:27] Shelly: Yeah, I totally agree. [Jaci laughs]

[00:03:29] There are countless adaptations of this story.

[00:03:34] So it's kind of the ground base for everything Christmas that has followed in the years since.

[00:03:43] I think there's even a Mickey Mouse movie.

[00:03:46] Jaci: Yeah, that's right.

[00:03:48] Isn't Donald [Duck] even a ghost?

[00:03:51] I don't know.

[00:03:52] Shelly: I don't know. I don't know at all anymore,

[00:03:53] who is being "redempted" ... [pause]

[00:03:56] Jaci: We'll have to google that, I can't let that sit on me right now.

[00:04:00] Okay, there actually is, that wasn't just a figment of Shelly's imagination, there is "Mickey's Christmas Carol",

[00:04:07] where the Scrooge McDuck is Ebeneza Scrooge or the,

[00:04:12] ma, now I've lost the name again - Scrooge McDuck -

[00:04:15] and then the story remains the same and he is then also accompanied by drei Christmas spirits

[00:04:22] in the form of Jimmy Cricket, Willy the Giant and the Weasels.

[00:04:31] Well, that sounds very entertaining, it only lasts 26 minutes. [laughs]

[00:04:35] Shelly: Ah, these are those typical Disney short stories.

[00:04:40] Jaci: Very nice, good.

[00:04:41] I'm glad you learned that now too.

[00:04:43] Shelly: You can watch that this year.

[00:04:45] Jaci: Right, that will be my new "Christmas Carol" experience.

[00:04:48] Hopefully it's not as scary [laughs] as the original.

[00:04:51] Exactly, another story that I always find very Christmassy, which I also know from Barbie,

[00:04:57] is "The Nutcracker".

[00:04:58] It's the original novel by E.T.A. Hoffmann, which I've never read either,

[00:05:06] Shame on me again.

[00:05:07] Shelly: I don't think I've ever read it either.

[00:05:08] Jaci: Then I don't feel quite so bad.

[00:05:10] There are also numerous movie adaptations of Barbie.

[00:05:15] And the famous ballet, I think most people know it from ballet.

[00:05:22] Shelly: Yeah, so I would have thought of ballet first.

[00:05:27] Jaci: Not Barbie? Shelly: No. [both laugh]

[00:05:29] But I looked at it.

[00:05:31] Jaci: Thank God, otherwise I would have had to lend it to you.

[00:05:34] It's in my home library.

[00:05:37] Shelly: And what are the go-to Christmas novels and movies that you have to watch every year without fail?

[00:05:49] Jaci: Well, I actually have very few novels.

[00:05:52] In my research, I've now found out that "Little Women" by Louisa May Alcott,

[00:05:58] "Little Women" is seen as a Christmas novella, so to speak.

[00:06:02] There's also a Christmas scene, but for me it doesn't make up the whole novel,

[00:06:07] but it's a great novel, you can always read it.

[00:06:10] And then of course there are lots of contemporary novels that simply take Christmas as their theme,

[00:06:21] mainly romantic, so romantic comedies as books.

[00:06:27] So there are an extremely large number.

[00:06:29] So if you google it, there are hundreds of thousands of titles, none of which I've read yet, I don't think.

[00:06:37] But then there are "snowflake dreams".

[00:06:40] Shelly: Is that Karen Swan?

[00:06:42] Jaci: Yeah, like you know it.

[00:06:44] Shelly: Yeah, I read them all the time! [both laugh]

[00:06:46] Jaci: How cool.

[00:06:48] There's "No Winter Without You" by Emily Stone or "Snow Glittering in Love" by Karin Lindberg,

[00:06:57] "Sparkling and Christmas Magic", anthology 4 in 1.

[00:07:02] Shelly: Do you know how many there are?

[00:07:04] Jaci: [laughs] No. Shelly: [amused] Are you looking on Google and not in the Littera catalog? Jaci: Yes!

[00:07:09] "I didn't have you on my wish list."

[00:07:11] My personal favorite, that sounds wonderful. Shelly: Great.

[00:07:14] Jaci: Right, now there are many, many novels.

[00:07:17] And the funny thing about these novels, even though we haven't read most of them,

[00:07:22] we dare to say that they mostly follow the same principle.

[00:07:29] Shelly: What's that?

[00:07:32] That there's usually one Christmas grouch who doesn't believe in the magic of Christmas.

[00:07:41] Shelly: So OG Ebenezer Scrooge?

[00:07:43] Jaci: Exactly, exactly.

[00:07:45] And then these characters meet a Christmas lover.

[00:07:50] Who then teaches them the magic of Christmas, so to speak, and shows them how wonderful it actually is.

[00:07:58] And in this process, these two people, who are usually enemies or don't like each other,

[00:08:04] so we have Enemies-to-Lovers again, [laughs] if anyone knows our old podcast episodes.

[00:08:11] Moments where then just, but then they fall in love in the process of the Christmas magic.

[00:08:18] That's my thesis, that it's actually always the same.

[00:08:23] Shelly: Yes, Christmas is the best love potion, so to speak.

[00:08:28] Jaci: Exactly. So it's snowing, bonfires, wine, reindeer, there's always kids somewhere who are excited about Christmas.

[00:08:41] Shelly: Then when they transfer the magic that the boys have lost a magic of Christmas.

[00:08:46] Jaci: Nice, nice, nice. Homey feelings come up.

[00:08:50] Most novels follow this principle.

[00:08:56] And in connection with these novels there is also the well-known phenomenon,

[00:09:01] that I think everyone who has Netflix knows, and that is the Hallmark Movies.

[00:09:07] Shelly: I don't think they're that present on Netflix. Jaci: Yes, they are.

[00:09:10] Shelly: Already? Because I always watch them on Amazon.

[00:09:13] Jaci: Well, I only have Netflix and at Christmas time there are a hundred thousand movies with the same cover. [laughs]

[00:09:20] And a personal anecdote, my mom and I always have a day at Christmas time,

[00:09:26] where we just bake cookies all day and we just watch movies like that all day.

[00:09:32] And there's nothing more entertaining because at the end of the day you don't know,

[00:09:36] which movie was which because the same thing happens in all of them.

[00:09:39] Shelly: Yeah, that's right.

[00:09:40] Jaci: That's wonderful.

[00:09:41] For those who don't know Hallmark Movies or aren't familiar with this phenomenon,

[00:09:47] I've picked out a definition.

[00:09:49] [clears throat] "The Hallmark movie is a genre of romantic comedy produced for television,

[00:09:56] that has become so ubiquitous that the term Hallmark movie has been expanded

[00:10:02] and now encompasses any television movie with a similar tone or aesthetic,

[00:10:08] regardless of whether it was produced by the Hallmark Channel or not."

[00:10:13] So it really all started at the Hallmark Channel, an American TV network,

[00:10:19] that produced these movies.

[00:10:21] Because now, because all the movies happen on these movies and have the same plot,

[00:10:26] all the Christmas movies that happen are called "Hallmark Movies".

[00:10:30] Shelly: That means they've coined a whole new genre.

[00:10:33] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:10:34] Shelly: Wow, zach.

[00:10:35] Jaci: And I'm glad drum. I look forward to the new movies every year.

[00:10:38] Shelly: Uh! Jaci: Uh?

[00:10:40] Shelly: I heard something.

[00:10:41] I don't know if that's true.

[00:10:42] Now it may be fake news, but I've read on social media.

[00:10:46] Jaci: [both laugh] Reliable sources.

[00:10:48] Shelly: That a Hallmark movie is about to be produced,

[00:10:51] based on the love story of Taylor Swift

[00:10:55] and her current partner, what's his name ...

[00:10:57] Jaci: No, Travis Kelce ... Shelly: Exactly, Travis Kelce to be produced.

[00:10:59] So, pop star constantly on tour, biggest pop star ever,

[00:11:05] falls in love with ... Jaci: With the football player. -shelly: Exactly.

[00:11:07] [Jaci sighs]

[00:11:08] Shelly: Trouble, trouble, trouble,

[00:11:11] Finally, happy ending under the Christmas tree.

[00:11:13] Jaci: [gushes] Ah, how great!

[00:11:15] Yeah, okay, then I'm back.

[00:11:17] That sounds perfect, I was there again.

[00:11:19] They got me again with Taylor Swift

[00:11:22] and Christmas thing.

[00:11:24] Shelly: I find that interesting too,

[00:11:26] that current topics are included in the genre.

[00:11:29] Jaci: Current topics, yes.

[00:11:31] I just think it's a shame,

[00:11:33] I haven't seen a queer Hallmark movie yet.

[00:11:36] Shelly: Right. - Jaci: So it's always very heteronormative.

[00:11:38] It's always ... - Shelly: It's always very traditional.

[00:11:40] Maybe because it's a traditional Christian festival and stuff.

[00:11:44] Jaci: Yes, but ...

[00:11:45] We're in the 21st century.

[00:11:47] Shelly: Yeah, I'm right there with you. - Jaci: So ...

[00:11:49] Hallmark, if you're listening:

[00:11:52] We want a queer Hallmark movie.

[00:11:54] [Jaci laughs]

[00:11:55] Um...

[00:11:56] And how do these movies work?

[00:11:58] Just like I mentioned before with the novels.

[00:12:01] Only there are usually more specific processes

[00:12:05] than with the novels.

[00:12:07] And it's mostly ...

[00:12:09] I'm telling this from the perspective of most movies.

[00:12:13] It also exists with "gender reversed".

[00:12:15] So I'm telling it now from the perspective of a woman making a career in a big city

[00:12:18] and makes it big.

[00:12:20] And then her company sends her to a small village, so to speak.

[00:12:26] To somehow boost the economy there

[00:12:28] or to carry out a project.

[00:12:30] And that's very often ...

[00:12:32] Um ... also the home village of this person. [laughs]

[00:12:35] Um... and then they return home.

[00:12:37] And either find their high school sweetheart again.

[00:12:41] Or a widower with a daughter.

[00:12:45] With whom they then fall in love.

[00:12:47] The problem is that the project that the businesswoman has,

[00:12:50] is usually the ruin of the person's business,

[00:12:55] that she falls in love with.

[00:12:57] So it's usually like, "We're building a new shopping center.

[00:13:00] And it's stupidly right where the handsome widower

[00:13:04] has his Christmas tree farm." [Shelly chuckles]

[00:13:06] And then just put that down.

[00:13:09] But then after she falls in love and talks about this widower

[00:13:13] or high school sweetheart again,

[00:13:16] how wonderful Christmas is.

[00:13:17] So, again, this Christmas grouch meets Christmas lover.

[00:13:21] Um... she comes drauf that the Christmas tree farm

[00:13:26] much better than her big corporate company.

[00:13:29] Shelly: And that family and love are much more important than a career.

[00:13:32] Jaci: Exactly, exactly.

[00:13:34] And then she mostly stays in the village

[00:13:36] and leaves her career behind.

[00:13:38] Over.

[00:13:40] Shelly: A bit anti-feminist, isn't it?

[00:13:43] Jaci: Quite problematic these movies on so many levels. [both laugh]

[00:13:48] But that's how most movies go, I have to say.

[00:13:52] Sometimes a prince is thrown in,

[00:13:55] so that it's kind of a royal Christmas ...

[00:13:58] Exactly, a royal Christmas or something.

[00:14:01] But it usually takes place in a small village

[00:14:03] and women from the big city come to the small village

[00:14:06] and fall in love with Christmas.

[00:14:08] So, that's ... - Yeah, that's the gist. That's the gist.

[00:14:10] That's all there is. That's all. [laughs]

[00:14:13] Shelly: You know exactly what you're getting into, that you call yourself.

[00:14:16] That's just great, I love that. - Jaci: Great.

[00:14:18] It makes you feel like you're watching the same movie four times,

[00:14:21] but it doesn't matter. That's nice.

[00:14:24] So it's called Comfort Movies, right? - Shelly: Yes, exactly.

[00:14:26] And I think that's what's changed

[00:14:29] in that time period from "Christmas Carol" to Hallmark movies.

[00:14:34] It's just become very predictable.

[00:14:36] Jaci: Yeah, and very romanticized.

[00:14:39] Ebeneza Scrooge is all about family and stuff.

[00:14:42] And so.

[00:14:44] And with the newer ones, it's more this "The Great Love".

[00:14:48] And it's all very romantic.

[00:14:50] Nobody's cold, it's beautiful.

[00:14:52] Shelly: Yeah, that would have been kind of very unsexy too,

[00:14:55] Ebeneza Scrooge would have had a love interest like that. [Jaci laughs]

[00:14:57] I wouldn't have bought that. [both laugh]

[00:14:59] Jaci: Dickens would be "outraged".

[00:15:01] [laughter]

[00:15:04] Exactly.

[00:15:05] But ...

[00:15:07] You can tell we like watching the movies,

[00:15:09] but we know they're not the best quality movies.

[00:15:13] Shelly: It's not about that. It's about the feeling. [Laughs]

[00:15:15] Jaci: But there are other movies for that,

[00:15:17] that are always good to watch at Christmas.

[00:15:20] And on the one hand, there are the classic Christmas movies,

[00:15:23] like "The Grinch".

[00:15:25] Shelly: Also originally a story, by the way.

[00:15:28] Jaci: Yeah. I didn't know that either.

[00:15:30] [both speaking in confusion]

[00:15:33] Shelly: ... as a PDF.

[00:15:35] Jaci: [sighs] I have so much reading to do before Christmas.

[00:15:38] Um...

[00:15:40] Or "The Holiday" with Cameron Diaz and Kate Winslet.

[00:15:43] Shelly: That's my favorite movie. Jude Law!

[00:15:45] Jaci: Or ... what's the one with ...

[00:15:48] Shelly: Love Actually? - Jaci: Love Actually, exactly.

[00:15:51] Or "Kevin Alone at Home" or "Kevin Alone in New York."

[00:15:54] Ultimate Christmas movies for me.

[00:15:57] Shelly: "Santa Claus" 1,2,3,4.

[00:15:59] "Santa Claus and Co. KG."

[00:16:01] [Jaci sighs]

[00:16:02] The OG series.

[00:16:03] Jaci: Every Gen-Z member knows "Santa and Co. KG"

[00:16:06] Shelly: I think even the millennials. - Jaci: I hope so.

[00:16:08] And then there are movies that don't really have anything to do with Christmas.

[00:16:13] But that everyone watches at Christmas anyway.

[00:16:15] Shelly: Always on the program when you're skimming through.

[00:16:18] You always click on the same movies.

[00:16:20] Jaci: In December there's nothing but the Sissi movies.

[00:16:23] Austrian classic.

[00:16:25] Romi Schneider.

[00:16:27] Super.

[00:16:28] "Drei Haselnüsse ist für Aschenbrödel".

[00:16:30] Banger, really. So this song.

[00:16:33] Always follows me to sleep.

[00:16:35] And the Harry Potter films are also classics for many people

[00:16:39] at Christmas time.

[00:16:41] Shelly: Yes, because it's always a school year.

[00:16:44] And Christmas is always part of it.

[00:16:46] At least in the first parts.

[00:16:48] Jaci: The first five are still very Christmassy.

[00:16:50] I think it goes downhill from the sixth.

[00:16:53] But ... not downhill in the sense of the story.

[00:16:56] Great movies, but downhill in the sense of happiness.

[00:16:59] Exactly, but that's probably also part of the thing

[00:17:02] "Comfort Movie."

[00:17:04] That's something that's very important at Christmas.

[00:17:06] And what all the movies here and Ebeneza Scrooge

[00:17:09] also convey how important it is to feel good at Christmas time.

[00:17:13] That feeling of homeliness, warmth, family.

[00:17:17] Shelly: It can't be too mentally taxing.

[00:17:20] Jaci: Exactly, exactly.

[00:17:22] I'm stressed enough by the holiday season.

[00:17:24] So these movies and stories just help,

[00:17:27] to remember the magic of Christmas.

[00:17:30] Of the things that are important.

[00:17:32] Shelly: And it's also something intergenerational

[00:17:34] that connects because it's the same movies,

[00:17:37] that my mom watched when she was a kid.

[00:17:40] [speaking at the same time]

[00:17:42] So my mom and I always watch "The Grinch" too.

[00:17:44] That's our thing too.

[00:17:46] But everyone has it, or everyone usually watches it on the 25th

[00:17:50] "Kevin Alone at Home" or "Kevin Alone in New York",

[00:17:53] because it's just on ORF.

[00:17:55] Everyone knows that, right?

[00:17:58] That's also Tyrol and Lower Austria ... [both laugh]

[00:18:01] Childhood experiences.

[00:18:03] Shelly: So, now you know a lot about our Christmas favorites.

[00:18:07] And of course we'll also be interested,

[00:18:09] what your go-to Christmas movies and Christmas novels are

[00:18:15] ... Books ... heaven knows ... are.

[00:18:17] You're welcome to write to us.

[00:18:19] Either by e-mail to post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at

[00:18:22] or

[00:18:24] on Instagram, where we are called

[00:18:26] "stadtbibliothek.innsbruck".

[00:18:28] Jaci: Exactly.

[00:18:30] Shelly: If you need inspiration,

[00:18:33] if you want to try something new,

[00:18:35] you're welcome to check out our library.

[00:18:38] Especially during the Christmas season, I would keep my eye open

[00:18:41] at our exhibitions.

[00:18:43] We will certainly have one or two Christmas books on display.

[00:18:47] You can have a look at our DVDs,

[00:18:49] what Christmas movies there are.

[00:18:51] You can watch it on our streaming service,

[00:18:54] if there are any Christmas movies on Filmfriend,

[00:18:56] where I very much assume there are.

[00:18:58] Jaci: Yeah, there's a lot.

[00:19:00] My personal favorite: "Elmo Saves Christmas."

[00:19:02] Shelly: Elmo? From Sesame Street?

[00:19:04] Jaci: Yeah. Shelly: [laughs] Cute.

[00:19:06] Right.

[00:19:08] And who received our literary tips newsletter

[00:19:10] and read it,

[00:19:13] from November exactly, the last one,

[00:19:15] which has now gone out.

[00:19:17] We're recording the whole Entspur earlier,

[00:19:19] it's not that long ago for us. [both laugh]

[00:19:21] He's already seen,

[00:19:23] that our librarians

[00:19:25] they picked out one of our literature tips.

[00:19:28] It's called "Mrs. Helbing and the deadly Christmas cookies"

[00:19:32] by Eberhard Michaely.

[00:19:34] And there it goes, it's a kind of Miss Marple. [both laugh]

[00:19:37] A German Miss Marple.

[00:19:39] So a pensioner,

[00:19:41] who solves murder cases as a hobby

[00:19:43] but always gets into danger herself.

[00:19:45] And in this book,

[00:19:47] So in this book,

[00:19:50] so in this case,

[00:19:52] she plays a part in a play,

[00:19:54] which is to be performed at Christmas.

[00:19:56] And behind the scenes, there are always cookies during rehearsals,

[00:19:59] which the actors practically bring with them.

[00:20:02] Including Mrs. Helbing,

[00:20:04] who brings cookies.

[00:20:06] And then dies, but unfortunately,

[00:20:08] the director of the play.

[00:20:11] And then even Mrs. Helbing is suspected.

[00:20:13] And so they take the whole thing into their own hands and solve the case themselves.

[00:20:17] Jaci: That sounds good.

[00:20:19] I have to borrow it now before you all want to read it after our podcast episode.

[00:20:23] Shelly: I think I already borrowed it.

[00:20:25] Jaci: [sighs] Ah, I'll just reserve it. Shelly: I can reserve it for you.

[00:20:27] Jaci: Thank you, Shelly. Thank you.

[00:20:29] Right, on that note

[00:20:32] Have a peaceful pre-Christmas season.

[00:20:36] Good luck with the errands and the Christmas rush.

[00:20:39] Shelly: No stress.

[00:20:41] Jaci: Right, it's going to be okay.

[00:20:43] If you need to come down, the public library

[00:20:46] offers a lot in the stress-free

[00:20:48] alternatives.

[00:20:50] We look forward to the next episode.

[00:20:53] Wishing you a Merry Christmas.

[00:20:55] And we'll see you next year.

[00:20:58] Bye.

[00:21:00] [Jaci sings] ~ Jingle bells, jingle bells

[00:21:02] Jingle all the way

[00:21:04] [Outro music] [Pia speaks] S'foreword is a production of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:21:31] and part of the Stadtstimmen,

[00:21:33] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:27] My name is Christina.

[00:00:28] Pia: And I'm Pia.

[00:00:29] Christina: And also, welcome back one last time to the Fall Reading Festival.

[00:00:34] In five episodes we have dedicated ourselves entirely to reading, set ourselves and each other reading challenges and discussed them in the episodes for and with you.

[00:00:47] Pia, what is today's episode about, our grand finale, if I may say so?

[00:00:54] Pia: It's about the "Horror of Dunwich", "The Dunwich Horror".

[00:00:59] That's a short story by H.P. Lovecraft.

[00:01:03] And we read the illustrated version, by François Baranger.

[00:01:08] The original, i.e. the short story, was published in 1929 in Magazin Weird Tales, just for your information.

[00:01:14] Christina: And Pia, what did you think of the reading experience?

[00:01:18] With this illustrated edition, one would like to say.

[00:01:22] Pia: Well, I'm a bit conflicted about it.

[00:01:26] On the one hand, it's quite nice to have illustrations and it's a very nice edition.

[00:01:34] Well, it's a bit of a collector's item, you can tell.

[00:01:37] Well, there are several of this illustrated version by François Baranger.

[00:01:41] I can imagine having that on my shelf and it would look really nice.

[00:01:46] On the other hand, it wasn't very nice to read.

[00:01:49] Well, I don't know about you, but it was too big for me.

[00:01:54] Well, it's a very large format book.

[00:01:56] It's 26 x 35 cm.

[00:01:59] That means you can already imagine, okay, you've got a big ink pen in your hand. [laughs]

[00:02:03] Maybe you're more used to having a picture book in your hand from the children's library.

[00:02:09] And I'm just not used to that anymore, I have to say.

[00:02:12] I don't know how you felt about that.

[00:02:14] Christina: I felt the same way. I opened it,

[00:02:17] and because it's in such a large format, the illustration is very atmospheric.

[00:02:22] And it really immerses you drin.

[00:02:24] I found that to be an advantage.

[00:02:26] But exactly the same.

[00:02:28] I really felt like I had to learn to look at picture books again.

[00:02:32] Because you really, I've forgotten that too.

[00:02:34] And that got on my nerves more than it gave me anything.

[00:02:42] For the reason that I could never take it with me on the bus.

[00:02:46] I mean, it's not meant to be read on the go.

[00:02:49] It is, as you say, a collector's item.

[00:02:51] And maybe I couldn't appreciate it for what it was.

[00:02:56] And in the end, I have to admit that here too,

[00:03:00] I went back to my tried and tested method of the audio book

[00:03:04] and then listened to the - not particularly recommendable, in my opinion -

[00:03:08] English audiobook.

[00:03:11] Because there was simply no other way.

[00:03:13] The whole time I had the feeling I had to wash my hands.

[00:03:16] Pia: You're torturing yourself through this book now. [laughs]

[00:03:17] Christina: [laughs] No, I didn't want to attack it because it's so valuable.

[00:03:21] Pia: [laughs] I was scared too when I was turning the pages.

[00:03:23] I was like: Not that I'm tearing up the times.

[00:03:25] Christina: Yes, and that just takes practice.

[00:03:27] But I think it was just unfamiliar.

[00:03:31] That was it.

[00:03:32] Pia: Yes, I think we both felt the same.

[00:03:34] Christina: Funny.

[00:03:36] It's also in our comics.

[00:03:38] Because it's really so prominent in the illustrations.

[00:03:41] Pia: Yeah, it won't make sense with the novels.

[00:03:43] I don't think it would ever be lent out there.

[00:03:45] Christina: Yes, I don't think there would be room for it on the shelf.

[00:03:48] But I think it would be borrowed.

[00:03:51] I just think that it's from ... the illustrations play for the story,

[00:03:59] almost as important a role as the story itself.

[00:04:03] And I think that's a skill you have to learn.

[00:04:09] We were both curious to see how we would deal with the story in this caliber.

[00:04:14] And that was then, yes, I really believe,

[00:04:16] that we were at the beginning of a learning curve.

[00:04:18] We should also discuss "graphic novels" or something.

[00:04:20] Pia: Yeah, sure.

[00:04:22] Christina: And then we'll see if we can get into it differently ...

[00:04:24] Pia: [laughs] Moving on.

[00:04:26] Christina:And many of you are familiar with Lovecraft

[00:04:29] probably already know about Lovecraft. In English, for example, there is the termdruck "Lovecraftian Horror".

[00:04:36] In German, people also like to say "cosmic horror".

[00:04:40] Lovecraft created an entire subgenre in his work.

[00:04:46] And this work is characterized by an atmosphere of existential fear,

[00:04:52] ignorance and the immensity of the universe.

[00:04:56] The core characteristics of this style of horror are a certain cosmic indifference

[00:05:03] or perhaps a kind of nihilism.

[00:05:07] A madness that arises from "too much" knowledge, so to speak.

[00:05:13] Unreliable narrators are very common and frequent.

[00:05:17] The loss of humanity.

[00:05:20] It's often more about atmosphere than action or deeds.

[00:05:27] And another theme is the inexplicable and the unknown.

[00:05:35] So, who was Lovecraft exactly?

[00:05:39] Pia: H.P. Lovecraft, Howard Phillips Lovecraft is the exact name.

[00:05:44] That was an American writer and he created this Cthulhu myth.

[00:05:49] And it's always about beings called the Great Old Ones who come from distant galaxies.

[00:05:56] Christina: And that's one of these examples,

[00:06:01] how Lovecraft deals with this cosmic horror,

[00:06:04] namely with beings who don't care about humans.

[00:06:08] Pia: Exactly. And then that went further,

[00:06:11] because after him, other authors continued this myth in their own works.

[00:06:16] Examples of this are Andrzej Sapkowski, Wolfgang Hohlbein.

[00:06:20] Christina: And I have to say, I have Stephen King too, but that's not quite true.

[00:06:25] Stephen King was just extremely inspired by Lovecraft and you don't find the Cthulhu Mythos in King,

[00:06:33] but he draws a lot of inspiration from the works of Lovecraft.

[00:06:39] Pia: [laughs] We also have some of his works in the bib, so from Stephen King and from Lovecraft in that case.

[00:06:45] And there are a lot of illustrated versions.

[00:06:48] For example, some comic adaptations, such as "Echo of Madness".

[00:06:53] Various stories from Lovecraft's universe are adapted there,

[00:06:58] or "Providence" by Alan Moore, which you might know in general,

[00:07:02] because he's so well known in the comic field.

[00:07:04] He created a new interpretation of Lovecraft's works.

[00:07:08] Then we also have manga adaptations, several by Gou Tanabe,

[00:07:13] of, for example, "Mountains of Madness", "The Color from Space", "The Hound and Other Stories",

[00:07:19] "The Outsider and Other Stories" and many more.

[00:07:22] And I found it very interesting that Lovecraft in particular likes to be adapted in comic or manga form

[00:07:29] and then illustrated.

[00:07:32] Maybe it's also because people like to depict horror.

[00:07:36] Maybe that leads to an additional shock factor.

[00:07:39] Yes, I just find it interesting.

[00:07:41] Christina:But Pia, because do you think that the illustrations now on our,

[00:07:48] "The Horror of Dunwich", added value to our reading text?

[00:07:52] Because for me, they actually took a lot away.

[00:07:57] Because Lovecraft's style is also characterized by this inexplicable and unknown.

[00:08:04] And with something like that, I always have the impressiondruthat the depiction of the monster

[00:08:10] the monster itself loses its horror.

[00:08:13] Pia: I think so too. I wrote that down too.

[00:08:16] You have to give the illustration credit for the fact that it stays hidden for a very long time, the monster.

[00:08:23] So you only see hints, you don't always see everything.

[00:08:26] But the text only hints at it, for ages.

[00:08:29] And even at the end, where it's described, it's still very much open.

[00:08:36] And of course, the moment you draw it, it has a clear representation.

[00:08:41] And I would have imagined it, well, if you just read the words, I would have imagined it differently.

[00:08:46] Some of the things that occur.

[00:08:49] On the other hand, I can also imagine that it's an easy introduction.

[00:08:53] Because people who perhaps find reading more difficult,

[00:08:57] maybe it's better if you really have an illustration with it.

[00:09:01] Because maybe it also helps and maybe it loosens up the text, I can imagine.

[00:09:07] Christina: That could be.

[00:09:09] I mean, we are now totally influenced by this environment that ... We grow up with movies, right?

[00:09:20] And with pictures.

[00:09:23] And when Lovecraft wrote it, there certainly wasn't this level of images and movies and representation.

[00:09:34] But I think that as a perhaps inexperienced reader, you don't even realize that,

[00:09:41] how enriching it can be to see things not represented.

[00:09:45] And in my opinion, that's actually what Lovecraft is all about.

[00:09:52] That's why it's particularly ironic, of course.

[00:09:55] I think it's a Drang of us humans that we want to portray something.

[00:10:02] And that we then want to put it on paper.

[00:10:04] But one of the characteristics of Lovecraft is that ... Too much knowledge, that it's unbearable.

[00:10:11] So too much reality, so to speak, that it contains its own horrors, right?

[00:10:17] And then it takes the horror away, somewhere.

[00:10:19] Pia: Generally in the story, it also leaves a lot unanswered.

[00:10:22] And it generally leaves a lot of room for imagination.

[00:10:27] And that can also make it a lot more terrifying, the story or creepier.

[00:10:32] Christina: Okay, but what exactly is "The Horror of Dunwich" about?

[00:10:38] And just as a little hint, since this is a short story, we'll give away the ending this time.

[00:10:45] Pia: So in "The Horror of Dunwich," Lovecraft takes us to the mysterious, gloomy small town of Dunwich,

[00:10:52] as you might think, in New England.

[00:10:55] The Whateley family lives there, Whateley [various pronunciations] I was sure of mine, if you pronounce it.

[00:11:01] Christina: In the audiobook I think they have ... Whateley.

[00:11:03] Pia: Whateley. Yes.

[00:11:05] And there are a lot of rumors about this family.

[00:11:10] The strange one, the Wilbur Whateley, who was born under very strange circumstances

[00:11:17] and very quickly becomes a verydrohilarious young man, hides a terrible secret,

[00:11:24] which is connected to ancient cosmic powers.

[00:11:28] And then, of course, there are strange events and disturbing noises in the city

[00:11:33] and this sends Dunwich into a tailspin of horror and terror

[00:11:37] and a battle against the incomprehensible begins.

[00:11:40] Christina: And before we go into more detail about the plot and how we found it,

[00:11:47] could you, Pia, perhaps give our listeners an overview

[00:11:51] about the most important characters in the story so that we know who we're talking about?

[00:11:56] Pia: Sure, of course. There's the old Whateley.

[00:12:01] He's called a wizard and he's a complete loner in this town.

[00:12:06] Then there's his daughter Lavinia, who is also a loner and is described

[00:12:13] as unattractive and also constantly referred to as "albino" and this is repeated often.

[00:12:18] Christina:And we'd like to make a brief interjection here that ... I think,

[00:12:24] that a person with albinism is used as a stylistic device,

[00:12:29] because evoking horror in the reader is problematic for several reasons.

[00:12:35] For example, it suggests that people with albinism are in some way

[00:12:39] "different" or "worse" in quotation marks.

[00:12:42] That's complete rubbish, of course, but as with many older texts

[00:12:46] you have to situate them in their time.

[00:12:50] As a reminder, the text was published in 1929. But that doesn't mean,

[00:12:54] that you can't draw attention to the problematic elements, similar to the last

[00:13:01] episode when we talked about "The Dead Woman in the Library" by Agatha Christie and the topic of slutshaming

[00:13:06] have talked about. It should also be noted that Lavinia is the only woman in this entire cast,

[00:13:13] and basically only serves to get Wilbur born, to get the plot going

[00:13:20] and then she disappears "inexplicably" in the middle of the story. Well. Pia: Twenties. Right,

[00:13:29] That's Lavinia and she has, as you've already revealed, a child, Wilbur. He has

[00:13:36] an unknown father and is unusual in several ways. He has a goat-like

[00:13:43] appearance, he grows very, very fast for a normal child and dogs react strangely and

[00:13:49] negatively to him and then there's a bunch of other things. [both laugh] Christina: Every horror trope, you can guess.

[00:13:54] Pia: And then there's the Henry Armitage. He's separate from the family again, he has

[00:14:00] nothing to do with them, he's a librarian from a university library and he's fighting

[00:14:06] against this horror. Christina: What a surprise, I didn't know there was another librarian

[00:14:09] who saves the day in the end, I have to say. Pia: For me, personally, it was

[00:14:17] the first time I've read Lovecraft, I think you feel the same. And I have to

[00:14:21] but I have to say, I would have imagined Lovecraft the same way. For me, this course story

[00:14:26] kind of checked off several boxes. Christina: Yeah, I totally agree here exactly what I

[00:14:31] expected and also, I have to say, in a certain intermediality,

[00:14:37] which testifies to that, reminded me of a lot of horror games. So they're always very Lovecraftian ... (?)

[00:14:44] inspired by that, quite obviously. And that's, ah, okay, he's the founder

[00:14:51] And that's why it sounds so familiar to me. And when we talk about it being so familiar

[00:14:56] familiar, but what exactly makes a typical Lovecraft anyway? Pia: So things,

[00:15:02] that struck us were, on the one hand, the atmosphere, which is very oppressive and eerie

[00:15:07] and there's a dark mood in general. We've already mentioned the setting,

[00:15:11] that's in New England, Dunwich, that's a very desolate area, it's dilapidated, the place is

[00:15:17] isolated and very strange inhabitants. And that doesn't just refer to this family,

[00:15:23] but in general everyone is described as strange [laughs] and then this family as well

[00:15:27] times more. Christina: Anyone who has played Silent Hill knows what the atmosphere in "The Horror of Dunwich" is like.

[00:15:34] Pia:Then generally this fear of the unknown, we've already mentioned that. It becomes

[00:15:40] only hints are made for a very long time, the horror is described very late. And also at the

[00:15:46] end of the story, it's not entirely clear where these great old men come from, what kind of people they are,

[00:15:51] people, beings and what exactly created the horror. Yes. Christina: Pia, how exactly does it end?

[00:15:59] So this Wilbur is a, [sighs] I thought he was Satan or something because of the goat story,

[00:16:08] but then he dies. By the way, trying to break into the library,

[00:16:13] I think he gets torn by a guard dog, right? Pia: Exactly. Christina: I didn't know there were libraries

[00:16:18] with guard dogs, but okay. And then they find out a little bit that the so

[00:16:23] disfigured. But can you give us a very brief idea of how it ends so that we know,

[00:16:30] what we're talking about now? Pia: So Wilbur dies and the horror is basically trapped in his house.

[00:16:36] It's a weird creature that has a lot of arms and looks weird. It escapes

[00:16:42] and basically ravages the area. Christina: So it's like a real monster that's going to be on the loose

[00:16:50] plot and the arc of suspense breaks at the end and it becomes clear that it's about to break out

[00:16:56] out of this house and the family that tried to keep it a secret are all

[00:17:01] dead or gone, the Whateleys, and now this horror is free. And who is the one,

[00:17:06] who can vanquish it? Pia: The Librarian. [Christina: Yeah, I'm not surprised. Very good turn of phrase. Pia: Exactly and

[00:17:13] he can do it, he reads into Wilbur's diary, then realizes how to defeat him

[00:17:19] how to defeat him. Christina: Aha, that means the power of reading ... [laughs] How funny is

[00:17:27] how funny is that? The Lovecraft that transports, we really didn't choose that on purpose.

[00:17:31] But guys, it just goes to show again that reading ... Pia: [laughs] How important libraries are. It's just

[00:17:36] this, "the power of knowledge", which can then conquer the horror. Christina: [interjects] He's right. He's right. Pia: Our heroes

[00:17:42] are librarians and professors from the university, of course. [Christina laughs] It's just that

[00:17:48] you also have to say a clear focus on male heroes, male heroic deeds. Women,

[00:17:54] as you have already indicated with Lavinia, are only mentioned sparingly, they are secondary characters,

[00:17:59] victims, like Lavinia or eyewitnesses who simply see it. Christina: Also ironic, because the majority

[00:18:05] people working in libraries today are actually female, right? Pia: Yes. [Christina: Well, again

[00:18:13] unrealistic, Mr. Lovecraft. [Pia: Exactly, and in the end the horror is defeated, but like I said, we don't know

[00:18:18] don't know where it came from. Christina: Okay, and now, what did you think of the ending? Christina: I'll say right away,

[00:18:27] already how I found it, because it was too obvious and so confrontational.

[00:18:32] This good versus evil thing, I know that, for example, that's why I went to

[00:18:37] Stephen King, from Stephen King as well. And that's me, and I've always imagined,

[00:18:42] that Lovecraft is a bit different, because he's so much about the unknown and

[00:18:50] the intangible and the cosmic, the cosmic horror for me is that,

[00:18:55] that something cannot be conquered. But then, by the way, when it was published

[00:19:00] also criticized at the time of publication because it's supposed to be quite atypical for Lovecraft. As I said,

[00:19:05] we actually don't know because we haven't read much Lovecraft,

[00:19:08] is our first Lovecraft. Lovecraft himself is said to have said that whenever horror,

[00:19:14] as in the story of Dunwich is so all-encompassing, there has to be a confrontation as it were

[00:19:22] as an explanation as to why the horror doesn't spread across the whole world. And that's why he

[00:19:27] used that on this textual level. He himself was probably a big fan of this story

[00:19:33] and found it very, very, very horrible and horror-inducing for his readers. What's it like

[00:19:39] how did it go for you? Pia: I can understand his reasons. It's only a short story, after all

[00:19:45] you have to say now, it's not a novel where you could elaborate on it. But he did

[00:19:50] and you have to say, of course, I don't know how it will continue.

[00:19:54] Christina: What did he continue? Pia: This myth, that's several of his works. Christina: So this

[00:20:02] Monster, he has a name and whoever of you can pronounce this name gets a shoutout. christina: [both laugh]

[00:20:10] Pia: Right. Christina: Or he has a lot of names. So the "omniscient", or the "know-it-all" ... [laughs]

[00:20:17] ok, now I don't dare go any further ... [Pia laughs] but it has and it will be continued. That's what you get,

[00:20:22] this essence runs through many of the stories. That's the one through the

[00:20:28] Cthulhu mythos, right? Pia: Exactly, the Old Ones in general then come up again and again.

[00:20:32] Exactly. But I also have to say, it was too cliché for me... On the other hand, of course, it's also

[00:20:40] entertaining. It's a bit like we said last time with the Agatha Christie.

[00:20:44] When I read this mystery novel, I think to myself, okay, I know exactly what to expect

[00:20:47] can expect. And with a story like that, I also think to myself, okay, it's a scary story,

[00:20:51] that's exactly what I can expect. So on the one hand, it was entertaining,

[00:20:55] it was nice to read. A bit creepy. Christina: That was it "nice" to read? Pia: Yeah, a little creepy.

[00:21:00] That's nice sometimes. [Christina: That reminds me, Pia, that you don't actually have any

[00:21:04] Scary stories magst, right? Pia: Although I have to say, it wasn't that scary for me. So it

[00:21:10] has gone. It wasn't completely scary. Christina: I think we're also just

[00:21:15] jaded. So that we, that that legacy of him has certainly carried on, like I said,

[00:21:23] Intertextuality, intermediality. Pia: And it was the twenties, after all, that's when things changed a bit,

[00:21:29] since then. We're "Game of Thrones" and much, much worse things where the blood just flows.

[00:21:34] Christina: The atmosphere totallydruimpressed me. I found it extremely atmospheric and it's

[00:21:40] masterful at building it up. But what I was missing was a bit of psychological

[00:21:52] depth. Pia: I understand that. It bothered me that it was left so open. I understand, of course,

[00:22:00] why it was left open. It's just a short story. But I would have liked to know,

[00:22:04] what these old people are, where they come from, why this Wilbur was created in the first place.

[00:22:10] These are all things that are never answered. And that bothered me so much. I just wanted to know

[00:22:15] to know. And at the same time, I have to say, I was almost- Not that I was happy now,

[00:22:21] that they're taking over now, [laughs] the funny old monsters. But I was kind of curious,

[00:22:25] what would happen if. And that never happened. Christina: I understand. So this

[00:22:31] Un... I think he works by leaving questions unanswered. But that's what

[00:22:37] I also did at the beginning, where it became clear that we probably won't know

[00:22:41] not find out what happened to Lavinia. And on the one hand, I find that impressivedrucking.

[00:22:47] On the other hand, that you have to make it up yourself because it respects,

[00:22:53] the reader to a degree that is sometimes unusual for today's texts. On the

[00:23:00] other hand, it's also frustrating, of course, when you at least wish for certain answers.

[00:23:04] But I can also imagine that we would then have to delve deeper into the Cthulhu mythos

[00:23:09] would have to. Because the more information we have, no matter how vague it may be, the more

[00:23:17] we can let our own imagination run wild. And maybe that's exactly what it's all about. The Lovecraft is about.

[00:23:20] Yes, that, folks, is the end of the Fall Reading Festival today. We are proud,

[00:23:30] that we've read a text every two weeks in these five episodes. And by "we"

[00:23:35] we also mean Shelly and Jaci, of course, who have been very active, who have given us

[00:23:41] who set us challenges, who read things for us, challenges that we set them.

[00:23:48] And we would just like to thank you for your active participation

[00:23:53] for all your comments, for the opinions that you mostly wrote to us by e-mail

[00:24:00] have written to us. And it's great that we were able to invite you to read and inspire you. And

[00:24:06] we're sure that this won't be the last time that we'll send each other any comments

[00:24:11] reading challenges and invite you to read with us again. Because as we learned today

[00:24:17] today, librarians can do a lot of things, including mythical, cosmic monsters

[00:24:24] conquer them. [both laugh] That's why, exactly. Pia: Yes, thank you for listening. If you've read Lovecraft as well, you can

[00:24:34] feel free to send us your opinion. Or maybe you've never read that one and you want to

[00:24:39] just send us your opinion on the episode. We'd be delighted too. At post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at

[00:24:47] or on Instagram or Facebook. We are always happy to hear anything from you

[00:24:54] hear from you. And we'd also be delighted if you tuned in and listened again next time. Bye.

[00:24:59] Christina: Bye. Nice reading. [Outro music]

[00:25:01] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the City Library

[00:25:31] Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [Voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to increased library visits. [Voice modulates] [Intro music]

[00:00:07] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:27] I am Christina - Pia: and I am Pia - and welcome back to our next episode of the Autumn Reading Festival.

[00:00:34] What is the Autumn Reading Festival? The hosts from the foreword pose a reading challenge to each other and, if you want, to you listeners.

[00:00:43] We then have two weeks to read the book and discuss it with you.

[00:00:49] In the last episode, Shelly and Jaci talked about the short story "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson.

[00:00:55] Fitting for "Halloween", by the way, because the episode went online on 10/31.

[00:01:00] And if you missed it, you can easily listen to it.

[00:01:03] Anyway, the two of them challenged us to read the novel "The Dead Woman in the Library" by the Queen of Crime, Agatha Christie.

[00:01:13] It's a real classic, of course. It was published in a new edition in 2024 by Atlantikverlag.

[00:01:21] But in the translation from that year, I think 2002.

[00:01:27] And this new edition is also available to borrow from our library.

[00:01:32] By the way, this time it's also one of the tips in our brand new literature newsletter.

[00:01:38] So if you want to stay up to date with recommendations from us and our in-house librarians, just subscribe to it.

[00:01:49] Above all, we recommend literature outside of the well-known bestseller lists.

[00:01:54] Although, Pia, I have to say that I was a bit disappointed to learn that this dead person in the library, this library, is actually a private library and not a public one.

[00:02:08] And it was from this family of aristocratic files, the Bantrys. How did you feel about that?

[00:02:14] Pia: I was totally surprised, because when I read the title, I immediately thought of a large library.

[00:02:22] Especially because the cover of this book that we just got really shows a huge library with such long shelves.

[00:02:32] So it's like what you might imagine a public library to look like.

[00:02:36] Christina: It almost looks like a viaduct or something, like a dungeon, a cellar with very endlessly high shelves.

[00:02:43] Pia: Exactly, and I didn't, so I didn't think about it at all that it could be a private library in any way.

[00:02:50] Christina: Immediately, because I also had a library, it's like in our house, but in the past it was much more common for libraries to be privately owned, especially by the nobility or rich families.

[00:03:02] By the end of the 19th century, more and more libraries were becoming public, but somehow still,

[00:03:09] the idea of still having a private library on that scale today is almost absurd, isn't it?

[00:03:21] Pia: Yes, unless you're from the nobility, but we don't really have that anymore.

[00:03:26] Christina: Yes.

[00:03:27] Pia, magscan you summarize for our listeners what the book is all about?

[00:03:34] Pia: The book is called "Die Tote in Bibliothek", we've already mentioned that.

[00:03:38] The original title is "The Body in the Library".

[00:03:41] It's the 31st mystery novel by Agatha Christie, but only the second Miss Marple novel.

[00:03:47] So the Miss Marple in this book is still fairly new, and was published in 1942.

[00:03:53] But what's it about?

[00:03:55] That's the big question.

[00:03:57] In a quiet English country house, the morning seems to begin like any other.

[00:04:02] Until an unexpected discovery by the housemaid shatters the idyll.

[00:04:06] In the library of the prestigious Bantry family lies a corpse, a young woman,

[00:04:13] dressed strikingly, but a complete stranger.

[00:04:15] No one knows who she is or how she got there.

[00:04:18] For the lady of the house, Mrs. Bantry, it is a shock and at the same time a puzzle that will not let her rest.

[00:04:25] Who is this woman?

[00:04:27] Why is she lying in this library of all places?

[00:04:29] Luckily, Mrs. Bantry has a friend who is curious and perceptive.

[00:04:34] Miss Marple.

[00:04:36] When Miss Marple delves deep into the mysteries of the village, she quickly realizes that not all is as innocent as it seems.

[00:04:46] A fascinating and interwoven story full of unexpected twists and turns unfolds.

[00:04:51] And every page brings Miss Marple a little closer to the perpetrator.

[00:04:55] So that's our summary of the book.

[00:04:58] Christina: Yes, where did you get the summary, it sounds like a publisher's preview?

[00:05:01] Pia: [laughs] Yes, I used ChatGPT, I must confess.

[00:05:04] Christina: [laughs] Okay, because that sounds so dramatic.

[00:05:06] Pia: Yes.

[00:05:08] I didn't want to just copy down the normal one, so I thought I'd put it into ChatGPT and then something better would come out.

[00:05:14] Yes, so for those who have read it or maybe still want to read it, it's a classic "whodunnit" case.

[00:05:21] It's limited number of suspects and there are logical conclusions until we can solve the case.

[00:05:27] And the suspense clearly lies in guessing along with the police officers and Miss Marple and not necessarily in the action-packed plot.

[00:05:36] Christina: Because there's no action-packed plot.

[00:05:38] Pia: Exactly.

[00:05:39] Christina: The funniest thing, so a lot is, a lot is the humor and the pointed observations and remarks that go along with it, right?

[00:05:48] Pia: Exactly.

[00:05:49] Christina: For example Miss Bantry, who is Miss Marple's friend and who is actually really happy about the corpse because "finally something is happening".

[00:05:59] But at the same time, it's kind of so ruthless, isn't it? [laughs]

[00:06:02] Because it's obviously so bored with her life that a corpse like that somehow gives a bit of a boost ...

[00:06:09] Christina: And that's the whole village, so it's all kind of, "ah, it's shocking and it's murder, but at the same time, ah, it's gossip."

[00:06:16] Christina: Yeah, totally.

[00:06:17] The whole interesting thing.

[00:06:19] Christina: That means it's definitely something for all fans of the classic thriller.

[00:06:25] I think you can also say that the novel, with its 200 pages, is also very suitable for someone who doesn't have that much crime fiction experience but would like to get a taste of it.

[00:06:37] So classic British crime fiction.

[00:06:41] It went down in two days.

[00:06:43] It's not that demanding, but it's very, well, I found it very pleasant to read it down like that.

[00:06:51] But did you guess who it was?

[00:06:54] By the way, we won't reveal it, we won't reveal the ending, but Pia, did you guess who it was?

[00:07:00] Pia: No, so I have to say, everyone is made suspicious by the story.

[00:07:07] And in the end it could have been almost anyone.

[00:07:11] So I didn't guess - I knew that these people or the person was suspicious, that something couldn't be quite right.

[00:07:19] But it could have turned out differently for me.

[00:07:22] Christina: I think I just forgot who it was again.

[00:07:25] A lot of people read these books just to guess. But that's never been the case with me, so I do read a crime novel every now and then.

[00:07:35] But I wonder - it's always far too exhausting for me to guess.

[00:07:38] I never think drÃabout it, I always find the meta elements much more interesting, because a crime novel is a literary construct and gives - which of course every novel is -

[00:07:52] but the crime novel in particular is naturally recognizable because it always plays with the same formula.

[00:07:58] And we've already done a podcast episode here about the classic British crime novel.

[00:08:03] Pia: Our best episode. One of our best episodes, by the way.

[00:08:06] Christina: Yes, that was their favorite. That's right.

[00:08:08] It was the best received and we discussed the ten rules of this Knox person, this British - [Pia interjects]: Theorist - discussed all the things a crime novel should have.

[00:08:21] And Agatha Christie regularly breaks many of these rules.

[00:08:26] But somehow it's always a formula.

[00:08:29] And I'm always interested in the way the authors play with this formula.

[00:08:34] And I'm reading one right now that is still, well, the modern British crime novels that are being published today,

[00:08:43] that are really dedicated to this classic genre, they play with this meta-formula to an extreme.

[00:08:49] And I'm currently reading one that's like that. And I like to write like show notes, like it's called, "West Heart Kill."

[00:08:55] Exactly, "West Heart Kill" it is. And I add the author to the show notes.

[00:08:59] But then I was really surprised to see that Christie also included so many meta elements.

[00:09:09] Pia: Yeah, but totally. So she's somehow so extremely aware of her own genre.

[00:09:13] It starts with the title, because that's the cliché, "The Dead Woman in the Library".

[00:09:19] How is that ... Please explain to our listeners why that's a cliché?

[00:09:23] I don't think it's quite like that...

[00:09:25] It wasn't a cliché for me.

[00:09:27] Pia: I didn't know it was a cliché either. I only knew it because it was in the foreword.

[00:09:31] I don't know if you also read a version with a foreword? Christina: Yes.

[00:09:34] Pia: Agatha Christie explains in the foreword, she always wanted to write a book

[00:09:41] with a corpse in a library, because that's the classic detective story cliché.

[00:09:47] Then I looked for it too, apparently it really does exist, that the corpse is often found in the library in crime novels.

[00:09:53] And she wanted to change it a bitdre. She said she wanted to make the library classic.

[00:09:58] Which is interesting because it's a private library and for us it's probably no longer a classic library.

[00:10:03] But she wants to make the corpse exciting and sensational.

[00:10:07] So she thought about this literary device for a long time before she put it into practice.

[00:10:16] Because she then wrote in a foreword that the library had to be a strictly conventional one.

[00:10:21] The corpse, the one against a very unusual, sensational corpse.

[00:10:24] Those were the guidelines, but it stayed that way for a few years and the project didn't get beyond a few lines in a school exercise book.

[00:10:31] So it took her a few years to get to where she wanted to be.

[00:10:36] And then she just wrote that.

[00:10:38] Christina: But what I also wonder, for example, in that context, the mag, today I would say it might have been a trope

[00:10:45] been once in the literature that the bodies are always found in the library.

[00:10:50] But why libraries?

[00:10:54] Pia: That's, so there are various reasons for that.

[00:10:58] But otherwise, of course, it could be that it's a contrast.

[00:11:01] On the one hand, you have the library, this place of peace, the order of intellectual retreat.

[00:11:07] And then as a contrast the murder.

[00:11:10] The corpse, the noise, the confusion, something you can't explain.

[00:11:17] In contrast to this strict, logical library.

[00:11:20] Christina: Which also draws this parallel to the crime novel itself, where the chaos breaks out through the murder

[00:11:26] and then the detective brings order back into the chaos.

[00:11:30] That's one of the theories about crime fiction.

[00:11:33] Why we enjoy reading it so much.

[00:11:36] Because we always have a protagonist who brings order back into chaos and enforces rules.

[00:11:42] Pia: And it all makes sense in the end.

[00:11:44] That's somehow also a bit parallel to the library.

[00:11:47] Yes, and then you have a really exciting question for us.

[00:11:50] That was, was the corpse really as sensational as Agatha Christie made it out to be and declared it to be in the foreword.

[00:12:01] I'll read out the part where the body is found.

[00:12:06] "But on the bearskin in front of the fireplace lay something new and lurid,

[00:12:11] Melodramatic.

[00:12:13] A brightly dressed, young girl.

[00:12:17] With unnaturally blonde hair pinned up in elaborate curls and ringlets.

[00:12:23] The slender body clasped a backless evening dress made of white, sequined satin.

[00:12:30] The face was heavily made up.

[00:12:33] The powder stood out grotesquely against the blue puffiness.

[00:12:37] The mascara was thick on the distorted cheeks.

[00:12:40] The scarlet of the lips resembled a gaping wound.

[00:12:45] The fingernails were painted blood red.

[00:12:48] So were the toenails in the cheap silver strappy shoes.

[00:12:53] A vulgar, pompous appearance highly incongruous amidst the solid, old-fashioned coziness of Colonel Bantry's library."

[00:13:05] Yeah, so I don't know how you found that description.

[00:13:11] But the way you're talking about the body is, I'll put it bluntly, really questionable.

[00:13:22] Pia: Yes ... it was also the - Well, because at first the body is not described.

[00:13:26] It's like the maid then runs up, informs everyone.

[00:13:31] And then Mrs. Bantry basically says to Miss Marple, "Yes, you'll see why she's so strange or why she's so special.

[00:13:39] this body and then you'll see that" and that's the description. And I have

[00:13:42] expected something completely different, what was so sensational about this corpse.

[00:13:46] Christina: At least once a pantomime or a clown or something.

[00:13:49] Pia: Costume or something else.

[00:13:52] Christina: A Dinosauros Rex costume.

[00:13:54] Pia: [laughs] Something like that.

[00:13:56] Christina: But basically, what it boils down to is that they're obviously

[00:14:02] obscenely dressed for the comprehension of the rulers there.

[00:14:08] Too much make-up, hair unnatural and obviously a bit implied

[00:14:17] Also too little on.

[00:14:19] I read a bit out of it, with the dress and so on, "backless dress".

[00:14:25] Yes, so that somehow goes ... so much the story is pleasant

[00:14:34] pleasant to read, and many elements reflect a classic detective story and one

[00:14:39] that you can actually read quite well despite these elements, I really wasn't enthusiastic about it

[00:14:45] about the way it was carried through as a theme. I have to say, when I read it,

[00:14:52] I thought to myself, okay, maybe it will be presented in a more differentiated way,

[00:14:58] but it got worse and worse.

[00:15:00] Pia: Yes, I also thought that she'd take it here now and maybe drösimulate it again

[00:15:06] and actually shows, okay, but the woman isn't like that and it's not so bad

[00:15:12] and that's not at all and that's just a prejudice in that direction.

[00:15:15] Christina: Exactly. Pia: That's what I expected to come up.

[00:15:17] Christina: As modern readers, we believed that the detective character would do this expected work for us

[00:15:22] to say slutshaming is not okay.

[00:15:25] Pia: Yes!

[00:15:26] Christina: [laughs] But that didn't happen.

[00:15:27] Pia: The opposite happened, especially too, because in the beginning they were really

[00:15:32] for a very long time, you have to say, it was only the police officers and the bantrys who were talking so drüabout

[00:15:36] but then at some point Miss Marple comes along and continues in exactly the same way. [laughs]

[00:15:40] So even the one person who believed in this young woman and saw her as something positive

[00:15:47] ends up basically changing her mind.

[00:15:51] And that was kind of depressing, you have to say. [laughs]

[00:15:54] Christina: And you can also say, well, let me tell you this much, a second murder happens.

[00:16:00] If someone doesn't want to hear that now, they have to fast-forward for two minutes, on a

[00:16:07] young girl.

[00:16:08] I don't even know how old she is.

[00:16:09] My onedruck was between 14 and 16.

[00:16:12] Pia: School girl in any case.

[00:16:13] Christina: Yes, exactly.

[00:16:14] And the policeman then says, quite clearly, well, he has to take the messages,

[00:16:20] the parents, including how she was found.

[00:16:22] That's very telling and I also found it very explicit for a novel like this

[00:16:30] time.

[00:16:31] We're talking about the 40s, aren't we?

[00:16:33] But then he says he has to deliver it and then he thinks to himself, well, this girl,

[00:16:40] that he just sees in the photo, she had nothing to do with it at all and

[00:16:43] is innocent.

[00:16:44] But the body that was found in the library, it was actually only

[00:16:51] it was her own fault or she pulled it herself and I-.

[00:16:55] Pia: She "deserved" it under leadership marks, because she challenged it.

[00:16:59] Christina: Yes.

[00:17:00] And in fact, it's quite a lot, I found that totally blatant.

[00:17:03] Pia: So that sentence took me out like that because I was like, it was just the whole time,

[00:17:08] as you say, it was comments from all kinds of characters all the time, that was

[00:17:12] that was going on.

[00:17:13] But I always thought to myself, well, okay, I have to ignore other times a bit, that's

[00:17:17] just like that.

[00:17:18] And when the sentence came, I was like, you can't be serious, that's a policeman.

[00:17:23] Christina: And that was, so then it was clear that this whole story was built around that.

[00:17:28] In the end, that's not a resolution, that's the justification.

[00:17:34] And we just have to stay a bit vague so that we don't give away the ending.

[00:17:39] But that's something, so I didn't like it.

[00:17:43] And I was also disappointed by the story.

[00:17:46] And I just, well, I've always searched like this and there are always counterparts.

[00:17:50] Pia: With a lot of people, you stick with the prejudices.

[00:17:55] And that doesn't just apply to women, doesn't just stick to women, but

[00:18:01] also this difference between the upper class and the lower class.

[00:18:04] Because that's basically what happens to them, so in the library of them, those are the bantries

[00:18:09] and that's just, they have this mansion, which means they also have money, they are

[00:18:14] part of the gentry, the neverdrinobility.

[00:18:16] And the other figures, some of whom are in the working class,

[00:18:24] like the dancer or the filmmaker, for example, they are looked down on.

[00:18:31] So these prejudices are not only limited to women, but also to other classes,

[00:18:37] Let's put it this way.

[00:18:38] And that really bothered me, for example, when more and more people came together

[00:18:41] was felt.

[00:18:42] Christina: And the whole plot and the whole resolution, as I said, is structured around the miss

[00:18:51] Marple then ultimately puts two and two together and is able to say, okay, but this

[00:18:57] Ruby Keen, who is the dancer in this hotel, that's the murdered woman, the body that was

[00:19:02] was found in the library, she doesn't know how to dress.

[00:19:07] Pia: And "she's from the lower class and they know, they've never been educated" im

[00:19:12] Basically.

[00:19:13] Christina: The conclusions that she draws from the case are actually the same in the end

[00:19:17] irrelevant, but they all hang on to this idea of upper and lower class.

[00:19:23] And that's what we mean by "the novel is constructed around it".

[00:19:27] And then of course, as easygoing as this reading experience is,

[00:19:32] - and you can also read over it, it's not -

[00:19:38] but that's where it gets really, actually now that you take a closer look, I have to say

[00:19:41] I have to say, it's actually quite zach.

[00:19:43] Pia: You get frustrated.

[00:19:44] Christina: I would say, I wouldn't recommend it. [Pia laughs]

[00:19:46] Yes, quite honestly.

[00:19:47] Pia: It's still a thriller, like you said, easy to read.

[00:19:50] The structure helps extremely.

[00:19:52] Christina: Yeah, you read through it.

[00:19:53] Pia: You know it.

[00:19:54] Ah yes, we have a "Closet Mystery", so it's in this library that's closed

[00:19:59] is closed.

[00:20:00] We don't know how that happened.

[00:20:01] We have our cast of characters with all kinds of potential motives.

[00:20:07] And now we can start guessing.

[00:20:09] And then we have Miss Marple, who deduces very quickly and very cleverly and

[00:20:13] who basically solves it in the end.

[00:20:14] Christina: And it's not too gory.

[00:20:16] It's also, you have to keep it too good, so the humor that's in there is already

[00:20:24] good too.

[00:20:25] And there's also the one or other point about these villagers,

[00:20:31] Miss Marple lives in the village of St. Mary Mead.

[00:20:35] And she's so good because, as an old maid, she's so integrated into village life

[00:20:42] is so integrated into village life.

[00:20:43] And I found that so surprisingly new-feminist, to give someone so much power

[00:20:49] for something that has such a feminine connotation.

[00:20:55] And she is so gifted for this feminine position by doing it

[00:21:00] and has the respect of this entire police force.

[00:21:03] And I thought that was good again.

[00:21:04] And that's also charming.

[00:21:06] Pia: So this village and the characters, they're also a bit funny. You can make fun of them a bit drü. [talking about each other]

[00:21:09] Christina: Absolutely a book of its time.

[00:21:12] It's just that in these things, you have to deal with the way they talk about them

[00:21:18] Ruby Keen, the dead woman in the library, that it's just and how the case unfolds,

[00:21:24] you can find a bit of impetus there.

[00:21:27] A pointed characterization, which I found very good again, is

[00:21:32] a neighbor of Miss Marpel and she is described: "She was a woman who

[00:21:38] cared tirelessly for the poor, however much they tried to evade her care

[00:21:43] tried to evade her care."

[00:21:44] Pia: Yeah, I read that too, that's when I thought to myself,

[00:21:46] that's entertaining. [both laugh]

[00:21:47] Christina: And that's another thing where I can recognize a certain reflectiveness

[00:21:53] which made me all the more surprised at the direction it took.

[00:21:57] But with Marpel herself, there was so much she could do, which to be honest wasn't so

[00:22:01] a lot, she was just a likeable character that everyone, she didn't have a Watson ...

[00:22:07] Pia: Did you find her likeable?

[00:22:08] I didn't find her so likeable.

[00:22:10] Christina: Well, sure ... [Pia laughs] She just, she doesn't have a Watson, but her Watson is

[00:22:16] practically everyone, both Mrs. Bantry and all these inspectors, except for the

[00:22:22] Slack, the Inspector Slack didn't think she was great, but all the others are singing their

[00:22:28] Hymns of praise.

[00:22:29] And that's just, that's actually the most you get from her.

[00:22:33] And then when she's there, where she gave birth to the child, and then I thought to myself

[00:22:38] Yeah, it's actually pretty tough.

[00:22:39] Pia: But that's more because of her comprehension skills.

[00:22:42] I think you can see how quickly she can deduce.

[00:22:45] But I don't think she was so charming as a character.

[00:22:47] Well, with her statements and so on.

[00:22:49] Christina: She's not charming, but I found her likeable because she's so - Pia: Because she was so quick and [incomprehensible].

[00:22:55] Yes, that's true.

[00:22:56] But I don't remember her like that, I don't remember Miss Marple like that.

[00:23:01] But that's probably also because I just remember Rutherford as nice and funny

[00:23:06] memory, because I know Rutherford from the movies.

[00:23:09] That's kind of the classic Miss Marple character for me.

[00:23:13] But apparently it's also the case, I then read, that in the books, in the later ones

[00:23:17] books, she becomes a lot more likeable and nicer.

[00:23:20] Christina: But I like the fact that she doesn't have this big-motherly quality.

[00:23:27] She doesn't have that.

[00:23:28] And I kind of liked that because she kind of, she also says how

[00:23:33] it is.

[00:23:34] So she, for example, when Mrs. Bantry then goes into some illusions and

[00:23:39] says how great she thinks it is, then Miss Marple sees through that as one of her coping strategies.

[00:23:44] And if that goes too far, then she tells her that too and so on.

[00:23:48] And that's why I found her likeable, because she tells it like it is, doesn't she?

[00:23:52] All in all, I don't know ...

[00:23:54] My conclusion entertaining book, you read through it quickly, it's a good ...

[00:23:58] ... you won't be taking it to the beach at the moment, but it's good for now

[00:24:04] maybe once, if you have to travel somewhere longer on the train or something, you can take it

[00:24:09] read very well. What did you think?

[00:24:10] Pia: It's also a quick read.

[00:24:12] And like you said, for me, I read it in drei hours or something.

[00:24:16] And that's really ...

[00:24:17] Christina: What?

[00:24:18] Yes, it went quite quickly, I think.

[00:24:20] Christina: What?

[00:24:21] That's not ...

[00:24:22] You didn't read it in drei hours, it took me at least six hours.

[00:24:24] Pia: Yes, I think, I think it was drei hours.

[00:24:26] I think so.

[00:24:27] So I read it in one day and it went really fast.

[00:24:30] Christina: How fast do you read? [both laugh]

[00:24:31] Pia: But I think that's just where that structure helped.

[00:24:35] You have to say that.

[00:24:36] What I didn't like so much was this looking down on other people.

[00:24:40] Christina: Would you recommend it?

[00:24:43] Pia: So for people who like crime thrillers and who like classic crime thrillers, definitely.

[00:24:47] Christina: Yes, definitely one of those typical books that you should definitely have read

[00:24:53] can read.

[00:24:54] Pia: Exactly.

[00:24:55] Christina: Yes.

[00:24:56] Pia, and now it's time to announce what?

[00:25:01] Pia: Yeah, and now we have to announce what we're going to read next time.

[00:25:05] Christina: We can announce it.

[00:25:07] Pia: We may announce what we're going to read next time.

[00:25:10] This time no one gives us a task, but we set ourselves the challenge.

[00:25:15] Yes, what are we going to read?

[00:25:18] Christina?

[00:25:19] Christina: Yes, and we have chosen a classic scary story, from the, that would probably be

[00:25:26] many would say, the founder of horror, namely H.P. Lovecraft's "The Horror of Dunwich".

[00:25:32] And we have the particularly great pleasure of reading the edition illustrated by François Baranger

[00:25:39] edition for reading.

[00:25:41] So this is really a picture book, for both of us, the introduction to Lovecraft and therefore

[00:25:48] we're particularly excited to see how this, together with these beautiful illustrations

[00:25:54] will have on us.

[00:25:56] As always, you are of course very welcome to read along with us.

[00:26:02] We have two weeks for the last part of our reading challenge and the last

[00:26:08] part of our fall reading festival.

[00:26:10] So you know exactly what's coming up:

[00:26:14] The book was published in 1928.

[00:26:16] This is part of the stories that are now known as - Pia help me -

[00:26:21] Pia: Cthulhu -

[00:26:22] Christina: Mythos are known. [both laugh]

[00:26:24] So, tell us how you found the dead woman in the library.

[00:26:29] As always, you can do so at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at or on Instagram (stadtbibliothek.innsbruck) or Facebook.

[00:26:37] Farewell for today and happy reading.

[00:26:43] Christina: Bye. [Outro music]

[00:26:44] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of the

[00:27:14] Stadtsstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Jaci: Hello and welcome to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:26] My dear colleague Shelly is sitting next to me and I am Jaci.

[00:00:31] And today we're doing the dritte episode in the spirit of the fall reading festival at our city library.

[00:00:40] Last time, our colleagues Christina and Pia talked about the book "Pavillon 44" and Thomas Sautner.

[00:00:48] Shelly: The competition, as you just said, Christina and Pia read Thomas Sautner's book in the last episode.

[00:00:59] And we also gave that away. And until today it was possible to enter.

[00:01:06] And thank you for the numerous entries. We will now notify the winner in the next few days.

[00:01:14] Jaci: Exactly. And now we won't keep you in suspense any longer.

[00:01:20] And you already know, if you listened to the last episode, you know that today is about Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery".

[00:01:28] So we've hit the jackpot.

[00:01:32] Shelly: Badumm-tss.

[00:01:33] Thank you, thank you. I've been working on this joke all week.

[00:01:37] Shelly. So funny.

[00:01:38] Not at all rehearsed or anything. [Jaci laughs]

[00:01:40] But a quick fun fact that I noticed before I started reading is that Shirley Jackson, the author's name, could work as "Shelly" and "Jackie" (ed.: Jaci).

[00:01:55] So you can make "Shelly" out of Shirley and then if I borrow the y, you can make "Jackie" out of Jackson.

[00:02:01] And I think that's an Easter egg that Christina and Pia intended.

[00:02:05] Shelly: Definitely. Jaci: Exactly. And my conspiracy theories are starting to roll.

[00:02:10] Shelly: I'm absolutely thrilled with your creativity.

[00:02:13] Jaci: Thank you, thank you.

[00:02:14] So that concludes my creative justification that I spent all my gerhin cells on.

[00:02:20] And right, Shelly, why don't you tell us about Shirley Jackson.

[00:02:25] Shelly: I'd love to.

[00:02:26] So, as I said, the author in the short story is Shirley Jackson.

[00:02:30] Her full name is Shirley Hardie Jackson.

[00:02:34] She was born at the beginning of the 20th century, not really.

[00:02:39] Actually 1916, that's not that far in the beginning.

[00:02:42] But well, 1916. She died in 1965.

[00:02:47] And she was married to a literary critic and lecturer.

[00:02:53] His name was Stanley Edgar Hyman.

[00:02:55] And he also supported her a lot in her own studies, because despite being married and having four children, she still studied.

[00:03:03] And spent 50 percent of her life, that's a quote from her, on writing.

[00:03:09] But it was always clear to her that her role as a mother and her role as a wife came first.

[00:03:14] And she put the writing on the back burner.

[00:03:16] Exactly, but she wrote quite a lot and quite well for that.

[00:03:21] About the content of what we read, "The Lottery".

[00:03:25] As I said, it's a short story, about 20 pages long,

[00:03:28] You're through it in a minute.

[00:03:31] Jaci: Exactly, so I just read that [clears throat] yesterday.

[00:03:36] And I just finished it in half an hour, with deep reading in half an hour.

[00:03:43] And very briefly, what happens on these 20 pages?

[00:03:48] Shelly: Can I just very briefly -

[00:03:50] Jaci: Please. Shelly: Hit you in the pan.

[00:03:52] Jaci: Oh, God.

[00:03:53] Shelly: I would have loved to read that book too.

[00:03:56] I just unfortunately had it read to me as an audiobook.

[00:04:00] Because Mrs. Jaci took it with her on vacation.

[00:04:04] And we only had one copy in the library. [Shelly laughs]

[00:04:06] Jaci: No, no, no, no, no.

[00:04:08] Christina

[00:04:09] said to me, we have it in German and in English.

[00:04:11] And I took it in German.

[00:04:13] And apparently it's not in English, somehow. [both laugh]

[00:04:17] I take any blame from myself.

[00:04:21] I can't help it.

[00:04:23] Shelly: Okay.

[00:04:24] Jaci: Yeah, I'm still sorry about that. Shelly [laughs]: Thank you.

[00:04:26] Jaci: Okay, back to the content.

[00:04:29] It all starts in a quite harmonious, peaceful, even idyllic mood in a village square.

[00:04:37] In a village that we don't get any more information about.

[00:04:42] We also don't know where it's set, i.e. in which country.

[00:04:45] There are actually no attributions. Through research

[00:04:48] I found out that it's an American village.

[00:04:53] And everyone is actually very cheerful until a black box is brought to this village square.

[00:05:02] And you can already tell from the characters that an event is coming.

[00:05:08] And that everyone has gathered for this event.

[00:05:12] And then this black box was brought to the village square and everyone suddenly gets nervous.

[00:05:18] So this crate would cause disaster or be a bad omen, so to speak.

[00:05:25] The men and women are standing together on this village square with all their children.

[00:05:32] And then there is a man who leads this ceremony, so to speak.

[00:05:37] That's the Mr. Summers.

[00:05:40] Exactly. And this Mr. Summers brings them this box and starts this ceremony.

[00:05:46] Whereby the narrative voice repeatedly notes that the ceremony is very reduced,

[00:05:53] that no one actually knows exactly what sentences are said or what songs are sung.

[00:05:59] So it's been reduced a lot.

[00:06:01] And it's really only about this box, which on closer inspection is also very nice.

[00:06:06] And in my opinion, it puts the whole ritual under a bushel, so to speak.

[00:06:12] And then strips of paper are mentioned that are in this box, which are then mixed together.

[00:06:19] And then the men or the older sons in the family have to draw one of these pieces of paper.

[00:06:25] They are then all called up one after the other, go up, draw a piece of paper and are not allowed to look at it.

[00:06:31] They are only allowed to look at the piece of paper after everyone has drawn it.

[00:06:35] And then it turns out that Mr. Hutchinson drew the bad lot.

[00:06:42] Shelly: You just don't know that it's bad.

[00:06:44] We have no idea what this lottery is all about.

[00:06:46] Jaci: Exactly, you don't know.

[00:06:48] But he just has a lottery ticket, where everyone is immediately relieved.

[00:06:54] And his wife immediately panics and says that it wasn't fair,

[00:07:00] that her husband didn't have enough time to choose the lot.

[00:07:04] And who has been virtuallydrängt by these Mr. Summers.

[00:07:07] Mr. Hutchinson tells his wife to be quiet and says, "Don't pretend, it'll all work out," so to speak.

[00:07:14] And then the drei children are also taken out of the crowd by the couple, so to speak.

[00:07:20] And then all five of them have to draw lots again.

[00:07:23] So all the children, one of the children is so small that another citizen has to draw for the child.

[00:07:30] And in the end, Tessi Hutchinson, the lady of the gentleman who drew, has the bad lot.

[00:07:38] Gets extremely panicky and all the other villagers get stones,

[00:07:47] collected by the children at the beginning of the story, get stones and attack this woman.

[00:07:55] So the story ends with everyone pouncing on her, so to speak.

[00:07:59] And then they deduce that the lady is now being stoned to death.

[00:08:03] Shelly:Exactly. It's not said directly.

[00:08:07] Or is it? So you've heard it in English.

[00:08:10] Jaci: Yeah, so you've read the German version.

[00:08:12] And then there's the last sentence, wait a minute.

[00:08:16] "It's not fair, it's not right, yelled Mrs. Hutchinson and then they pounce on her."

[00:08:23] So that's how it is, that's how the story ends and just before that everybody picks up stones, that's how I figure she gets stoned.

[00:08:31] Shelly: Yeah, exactly. That's just the short summary of the content.

[00:08:37] And now I'm just going to tell you a little bit about the origin story.

[00:08:42] This short story was first published in 1948.

[00:08:49] In this cultmagamagazine "The New Yorker" and then later in an anthology,

[00:08:56] which in the original is called "The Lottery - Adventures of the Demon Lover".

[00:09:02] And that was then translated into German for the first time in 1989.

[00:09:07] And then it's called "The Devil's Bride - 25 Demonic Tales". [both laugh]

[00:09:12] I love German translations, really.

[00:09:17] Jaci: And very, may I just add: when the story was published, it also got a lot of negative feedback.

[00:09:26] So it wasn't well received by people.

[00:09:29] Shelly:They weren't thrilled at all, there were over 300 letters to the editor that went directly to Shirley Jackson.

[00:09:36] And only 13 of them were in a friendly tone. [Jaci laughs]

[00:09:41] Yeah, and mostly those letters to the editor were about people being totally, people being totally confused.

[00:09:49] Everyone wanted to know the meaning of the story.

[00:09:52] They were very agitated and very angry in their letters.

[00:09:57] And it even went so far that the Union on South Africa, the Union, the South African Union, even banned this story.

[00:10:07] So there's been strong censorship on this story.

[00:10:11] And Shirley Jackson has become an important representative of Slipstream Literature with this story.

[00:10:21] It's a literary current and works of this slipstream are on the border between realistic mainstream literature and science fiction or fantasy literature.

[00:10:37] I googled that.

[00:10:39] Jaci: Great research, Shelly. Thank you so much. [both laugh]

[00:10:42] Very interesting, we both just read or heard the story. What was your onedruck when you read it?

[00:10:52] Well, it somehow starts so innocently, almost idyllically or ... Jaci: Yes, so fairytale-like somehow.

[00:10:58] Shelly: Yeah, totally.

[00:10:59] And Shirley Jackson's style is actually quite interesting. She actually describes obvious or apparent abnormalities as something quite normal.

[00:11:11] And that's why you only realize in the course of the story drathat it's actually quite "eerie" and gloomy.

[00:11:19] Jaci: Exactly, so I was also very surprised by this twist in the story.

[00:11:25] I did think that something had to happen because Christina was very curious about our reaction to the challenge.

[00:11:36] And I thought the whole time what would happen, but because the lottery is somehow connoted with very positive words in my head.

[00:11:45] So it's more like winning and something good happens when you win a lottery.

[00:11:50] So I was very curious to see what would happen. I definitely wasn't expecting a stoning, I have to say.

[00:11:57] Mainly because the atmosphere was very modern, or at least more modern than I imagined it would be in the age of stoning.

[00:12:08] So it could be now, when was it written, 1948?

[00:12:13] It could be set in that time, but it could just as easily be set right now, so it's a rather timeless narrative.

[00:12:20] But still very disturbing because it could always be current and there would be people who would still be doing it now.

[00:12:30] Shelly:It's funny that you say that, because in the letters to the editor that she received, a lot of people asked where this place is now [Jaci laughs] and whether this is an experience report and where it is practiced now.

[00:12:42] So they really bought it.

[00:12:44] Jaci: Yes, so it's very realistic and I can also imagine that things were handled like that in the past, too.

[00:12:53] Shelly:Yes, but maybe as a punishment, but not as a lottery.

[00:12:56] Jaci: Exactly, that's right.

[00:12:57] And that's what confused me about the next one.

[00:13:01] This ceremony, which everyone performs with so much devotion, even though no one seems to know the origin or really the truth behind the ceremony or how the tradition should really take place, or the ritual should really take place, so what should be said, somehow no one knows that anymore.

[00:13:20] And for me, that's this carrying out of traditions, even though you don't know what it is, like when you go to church unenlightened and just repeat the prayers, but you don't know what you're actually saying.

[00:13:32] Well, that's just the way it is.

[00:13:33] You have to know and question things somehow so that you can think like that.

[00:13:38] And I mean, you also learn in history that other villages no longer perform this ritual.

[00:13:46] So they've done away with it and the oldest people in the village where we're hearing the story,

[00:13:53] are quite horrified that it has been abolished.

[00:13:56] And then one of them says, so to speak, yes, if you can abolish the ritual,

[00:14:00] we can go right back to living in caves, because then we won't look any better than barbarians,

[00:14:05] although what happens here in the ritual is barbaric.

[00:14:09] Shelly [snorts]: Yeah, actually it is. But it's just this mindless adherence to tradition.

[00:14:14] Jaci: Exactly, and then I just, I researched it and I tried,

[00:14:18] to find interpretations for this text or analyses,

[00:14:21] because I just couldn't come to terms with the fact that I was getting so little information,

[00:14:27] that we as readers don't know why the tradition exists,

[00:14:32] why do the citizens want to continue it, why do they cling to this barbaric ritual?

[00:14:40] even though you don't have to do it, as other villages have now abolished it.

[00:14:45] Shelly: That's really annoying, isn't it? Jaci: And that drives me crazy, I think it's totally insane,

[00:14:52] that I think to myself, I'm doing this and I don't know why I'm doing it,

[00:14:58] but I'm just going to stone a woman because that's what tradition demands of me.

[00:15:03] Shelly: "Because we've always done it that way". Jaci: Exactly! "And that's just the way it's always been and you don't question the traditions."

[00:15:08] but in other villages, where the young people are asserting themselves, it's been abolished,

[00:15:14] because the boys, they always want to change things and stuff, that's bad, [both laugh] Shelly: How can they.

[00:15:20] Jaci: In any case, I just found out during my research,

[00:15:25] that, of course, a lot of socially critical things should be shown.

[00:15:30] So of course Shirley Jackson had a deeper meaning behind this story, which she wanted to extract fromdrÃ.

[00:15:36] And she's mainly interested in showing what people are capable of inside themselves,

[00:15:43] in other words, the evil that lurks in every human being, combined with the power of tradition and rituals

[00:15:52] and also the power of the group, the anonymity that you have in the group and this community pressure.

[00:16:00] So that a whole village comes together and it doesn't really matter who throws the first stone,

[00:16:08] because everyone throws it anyway and then "it's not your fault", that's how it is, exactly.

[00:16:14] And I think that's also what upsets a lot of people because it's so realistic

[00:16:19] and it shows what a community is capable of.

[00:16:24] Shelly:Yeah, and then there's the element of chance with the lottery, with the tickets.

[00:16:32] Jaci: Exactly, that's where I was reading too because this Mrs. Hutchinson,

[00:16:36] I don't know if I'm pronouncing the name right, but that's how we read it - Shelly: Hutchinson, that's how I read it. - Jaci:Ok.

[00:16:41] She denies the outcome of this lottery and says it wasn't fair,

[00:16:50] she's not saying that the ritual is stupid and that it should be abolished

[00:16:56] or that it's generally unfair to stone someone, she's just against it happening to her family.

[00:17:02] Shelly: Yeah. Jaci: And that's kind of exciting that she accepts the lottery but not the outcome,

[00:17:09] because her life is worth more to her than this tradition, but she would sacrifice another life for this tradition.

[00:17:17] Shelly: Yeah. Jaci:And that's what got me so upset because I thought to myself, how can you think that's good,

[00:17:23] this tradition if you don't accept it yourself and don't... Shelly: right, how can you someone,

[00:17:29] how can you stone someone else when you wouldn't accept it yourself?

[00:17:34] Jaci: That was also one of those notes where you thought, I don't know, that's not a well-rounded thing ...

[00:17:41] I mean, it's also a great story, but the whole process in this village really gets me down,

[00:17:47] not the story itself, because the story is brilliant, but it's just the way these people think that makes me so crazy,

[00:17:53] I can't say it any other way, it just makes me foolish because you know exactly what's going on in these people's heads

[00:18:01] and how ill-considered that is.

[00:18:04] Shelly: Yeah full, it's really really realistic, so it's very socially critical,

[00:18:09] and it kind of holds up a mirror to all of us.

[00:18:13] Jaci: Exactly, yes. And I mean, it's also been compared to "The Hunger Games" in an analysis,

[00:18:21] because in "The Hunger Games", which is a series of books for young people by Suzanne Collins, the tributes are drawn from every district in the country,

[00:18:32] so they're also drawn by lot, it's not a lottery, and there it's a lot of what this dictatorial state

[00:18:41] on the people, that tributes are demanded, but they are then sent to their own arena,

[00:18:49] where these tributes have to kill each other and not the society in which they live.

[00:18:55] And I think that's also a point that was even more disturbing to me, that it was the neighbor and wife of many,

[00:19:03] and that the people who knew her killed her.

[00:19:06] And I don't think this comparison with "Tribute to Panem" is really appropriate because it's a completely different mentality.

[00:19:14] Shelly: That, and you already said it was a dictatorial state, and they made it up themselves in the village,

[00:19:23] that they would continue to run the lottery, so they were actually only forced by tradition, but not from above.

[00:19:31] Jaci: Precisely because you realize that it's not carried out in other villages and they don't face any consequences dro.

[00:19:38] So exactly, that's the comparison. My personal comparison was "Squid Game", the Netflix series, which was drei years ago, I think.

[00:19:48] Shelly: I think that was before corona, right?

[00:19:50] Jaci: During Corona, I think. Shelly: During Corona.

[00:19:52] Jaci: Yeah, time is a construct. [Shelly laughs] That was this successful Netflix series a few years ago where people, in a TV...

[00:20:03] So what's it called, they're put into a competition where they have to kill other people or just their opponents,

[00:20:11] to get rid of their debts in real life, so to speak.

[00:20:15] And that also shows what's inside people, what humanity is capable of.

[00:20:20] And it's not a draw, but simply the brutality of this series and the brutality of people's mentality

[00:20:29] In this scenario, I think the comparison is just a bit more appropriate because you get more of this harsh reality.

[00:20:38] Shelly: Yeah, but they're going to be in... So this is a year where the characters are actually from the people who invented the game, right?

[00:20:46] Jaci: Exactly, although again from the top...

[00:20:48] Shelly: Yeah, they're from the top again...

[00:20:49] ...steered down more or less.

[00:20:50] Jaci;It's not a perfect comparison, but to me it reflects more of this "kill your neighbor".

[00:20:56] Not like "Tribute to Panem", someone you don't even know, kind of thing.

[00:21:02] Exactly, because what was also stated in an analysis was that the principle of the scapegoat with this punishment, with this stoning,

[00:21:11] is somehow used in this lottery, but I just don't understand,

[00:21:16] and I think that also has to do with the fact that we as readers don't know where the ritual comes from, because maybe it also comes from these...

[00:21:23] "Someone has to be punished for our sins."

[00:21:28] Shelly: Yeah, but what kind of sins happened?

[00:21:30] Jaci: You don't know.

[00:21:32] And I don't understand that either, like the principle of the sin goat with the lottery in the point of view, where that's already in this narrative.

[00:21:41] You don't know how it was before, how it plays together.

[00:21:45] Shelly: Maybe it used to be more of a ritual sacrifice that you made, and because nobody wanted to be the one to choose someone, that there was then the lottery, but that background has somehow been lost.

[00:21:54] Jaci: Yes, you just don't know. Did it just come about socially, politically, religiously? You don't know.

[00:22:00] In any case, it's a crazy ritual, in my opinion ... [laughs] Shelly [sarcastically]:What, I think it's totally great.

[00:22:07] Jaci: It's so disturbing because even in "Squid Game" and in "Tribute to Panem" now, for example, because we just took the comparison here, there are no kids involved.

[00:22:18] And in Shirley Jackson's lottery - Shelly: Not in "Tribute to Panem" because her sister... sacrifice herself.

[00:22:24] Jaci: Yeah, but they're at least 15, I think. - Shelly: I see.

[00:22:27] Jaci: Well, they have to have reached a certain age, but this child in the lottery, she can't even draw a ticket herself.

[00:22:35] Well, that's maybe drei years old, two, drei years old.

[00:22:38] Shelly: But then there's who's going to fill in.

[00:22:40] Jaci: Yeah, just to draw the lot, not to take the punishment.

[00:22:43] Shelly [surprised]: Oh?

[00:22:44] Jaci: I don't think the man who drew for the child would be stoned to death.

[00:22:50] I believe that then the child...

[00:22:52] Shelly: Boah, zach.

[00:22:53] Jaci: Exactly!

[00:22:54] The drei children then pulled, and in the end they gave pebbles to this little child who couldn't even pull it himself.

[00:23:02] That's also thrown at his mother, so to speak.

[00:23:05] And it's all so barbaric.

[00:23:08] And on top of that, I think that's a whole separate podcast again, only the men are pulling.

[00:23:15] In other words, the men also pull over the lot of their wives.

[00:23:18] Not even the women themselves are allowed to pull to somehow ...

[00:23:22] It's, it's a matter of happiness.

[00:23:23] Shelly: It's the head of the family pulling. Jaci: Exactly!

[00:23:25] Shelly: It's either the father, and if he doesn't exist anymore, that's some reason, because he drew the last lot ... Jaci: And then he's the son.

[00:23:30] Shelly:Then the son, and the son, and when he's not, then the wife.

[00:23:34] Then the wife.

[00:23:35] That's also a woman pulling, and everyone's like, "Don't you have a son who can pull for you?"

[00:23:40] Shelly: Yes, that's right, that's also crass.

[00:23:41] That's when it got to me, that's when we thought, at least let the woman try her luck herself, so to speak.

[00:23:48] But maybe I'm too...

[00:23:52] Shelly:Emancipated.

[00:23:53] Jaci [laughs]: So, totally done with the story.

[00:23:56] Yeah.

[00:23:57] Shelly:Yeah.

[00:23:58] Jaci: You can tell I'm very... jaci: Upset.

[00:24:00] Shelly: Torn.

[00:24:02] I thought she was cool.

[00:24:03] I thought she was really cool because I don't know ...

[00:24:05] Because I don't know so much.

[00:24:07] Because I have to spin so much together myself in my head.

[00:24:09] Jaci: I mag things like that, I have to know exactly how things like that happen.

[00:24:12] Then I question it way too much, and then it won't let me go for days.

[00:24:16] So I'll be thinking about that story for longer now.

[00:24:19] Shelly: Yeah, but that's just Shirley Jackson.

[00:24:22] In our podcast, Christina and Pia already have something for a Shirley Jackson,

[00:24:26] the one in the last season, "The Haunting of Hill House",

[00:24:29] so "Haunting of Hill House", which was also made into a Netflix movie.

[00:24:33] And it's also the case that you don't know exactly, okay, what's happening right now.

[00:24:37] And that's a whole novel, that was really cool, I read it too.

[00:24:40] Jaci: Oh god, yeah okay, maybe I'll read that too.

[00:24:42] But okay, then it would upset me. [both laugh]

[00:24:44] Shelly: Yeah, maybe it's not for you.

[00:24:46] Jaci: Yeah.

[00:24:47] Okay, definitely, Christina and Pia, thank you for this challenge.

[00:24:51] It was really a challenge for me. [laughs]

[00:24:54] Mentally. [Shelly laughs]

[00:24:55] But a very good book.

[00:24:59] Shelly: And now, of course, you want to know what to read next.

[00:25:05] And since we just recorded the Halloween episode, - Jaci: Happy Halloween! -

[00:25:10] and it was very spooky - yeah, Happy Halloween, by the way [laughs] -

[00:25:14] or who celebrates the Night of a Thousand Lights,

[00:25:17] happy lights [unintelligible]

[00:25:20] Jaci: And also with the witches it's now - [unintelligible].

[00:25:22] Shelly: Anyhow, by all means, let's just keep it a little spooky like that.

[00:25:29] And so you're going to read a mystery.

[00:25:33] And it's by the quintessential mystery writer, - [Jaci drums on the table]

[00:25:39] Agatha Christie.

[00:25:42] And you'll read something very appropriate for our workplace, [Jaci laughs]

[00:25:49] "The Dead Woman in the Library". Jaci: Dum-dum-dum. [Shelly laughs]

[00:25:52] Jaci: And it's the new edition, which we also just druckfrisch,

[00:25:58] just got into the library, so to speak.

[00:26:01] 2024 now newly published, where the Miss Marple,

[00:26:05] one of the most famous detectives of Christie's time,

[00:26:09] and of our time, is probably also investigating a murder.

[00:26:13] Shelly: In a library.

[00:26:15] Jaci: We leave you with this joyful reading challenge,

[00:26:19] dear readers,

[00:26:21] and also Christina and Pia to start the Halloween evening.

[00:26:26] And we look forward to the next episode.

[00:26:29] Shelly: We are. Have fun reading.

[00:26:31] Jaci: Thank you for listening.

[00:26:33] [Outro music]

[00:26:57] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library,

[00:27:01] and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:27:05]

[00:00:00] [Voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [Voice modulates] [Intro music]

[00:00:06] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:27] I am Christina - Pia: and I am Pia - and a double welcome back to our first episode of the Autumn Reading Festival,

[00:00:35] firstly, and secondly to Pia, who is now back. Hi Pia. Pia: Yay! [laughs]

[00:00:39] Christina: It's nice to have you back.

[00:00:42] What is the Fall Reading Festival? The hosts from the foreword introduce themselves to each other and if you want, dear listeners,

[00:00:52] then there's a reading challenge for you too. We then have two weeks to read the book and discuss it with you.

[00:01:00] Two weeks ago, Shelly and Jacuqeline set us the challenge of reading Pavillon 44, the new novel by Thomas Sautner.

[00:01:10] But before we get to the review of Sautner's novel, I'd like to remind you of our prize draw.

[00:01:16] Because you can still win a signed copy of the new novel until October 28th.

[00:01:23] Just write us either your onedrü corner about the novel or why you would like to read it,

[00:01:29] perhaps on today's episode, at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at

[00:01:37] or on Instagram under the handle stadtbibliothek.innsbruck.

[00:01:42] The novel will then be raffled off among all entries and the person who won will be contacted by us.

[00:01:49] Participation is limited to 18 years. So that would be a nice gift for a Sautner fan, wouldn't it Pia?

[00:01:54] Pia: Definitely. [laughs] They'll be happy about that drÃfor sure.

[00:01:58] Yes exactly, we're talking about Pavilion 44 by Thomas Sautner. For all those who don't know him yet,

[00:02:04] Thomas Sautner is an Austrian writer from Lower Austria, specifically the Waldviertel.

[00:02:10] We have a few of his titles in the library. For example, we have "Fuchserde", which would be his first novel.

[00:02:15] It's about [unintelligible] in the Waldviertel or "Der Glücksmacher", "Das Maedchen an der Grenze", "Die Erfindung der Welt",

[00:02:22] "Only two old men" and many others.

[00:02:25] Among the non-fiction books, we have "Waldviertel steinweich", which is a literary travel guide for the,

[00:02:29] who would like to get to know the Waldviertel a little better.

[00:02:32] That's with the travel guides and, of course, we also have digital ebooks of many of his books in the Onleihe.

[00:02:39] "Pavillon 44" is his latest novel and that's what we're talking about today.

[00:02:44] So I've brought us a little summary.

[00:02:47] "Pavillon 44" is set in a psychiatric institution on the outskirts of Vienna.

[00:02:52] To be precise, in "Pavillon 44". [laughs]

[00:02:54] Christina: Mhm. Namesake.

[00:02:56] Pia: This institution just now, that's the title.

[00:02:58] The head doctor is Siegfried Lobel? Lobell?

[00:03:02] Christina: I always say "Lobell" [emphasizes 2nd syllable]. [both laugh]

[00:03:04] Pia: A bit of a French accent.

[00:03:06] Christina: "Lubbell." [both laugh]

[00:03:09] Pia: Through his patients, he wants to learn more about the world, life and himself.

[00:03:14] And at the same time, a writer also visits the pavilion,

[00:03:17] because she wants to write a book about him.

[00:03:19] But then, plot twist, two patients disappear.

[00:03:23] And Lobell sets off for the center of Vienna to search for them.

[00:03:30] He finds a lot of crazy people there, but not his patients.

[00:03:34] So that's just a brief summary.

[00:03:37] Just a teaser, we'll stay spoiler-free.

[00:03:39] Christina: That's important to mention.

[00:03:41] That is, for those of you who haven't had time yet

[00:03:46] or have not yet taken on this reading challenge,

[00:03:49] you can also listen to the episode with peace of mind and then start reading.

[00:03:53] Pia: Exactly.

[00:03:55] Christina: So, Pia, which of us has read the book for today?

[00:03:59] Pia: [laughs] Not me.

[00:04:01] But that's always Christina diligently.

[00:04:03] [both laugh] That's why I've brought questions for her now.

[00:04:05] The first question is, of course, how did you like it?

[00:04:07] Christina: Briefly summarized:

[00:04:09] Good.

[00:04:10] Next question. [both laugh]

[00:04:12] So, as you said, it's about the psychiatric ward at Baumgartener Höhe in Vienna.

[00:04:17] And there's this special wing there, Pavilion 44, where the head physician Siegfried Lobell,

[00:04:23] this so-called expert in his field -

[00:04:26] - this is the kind of expert who also gives TV interviews

[00:04:30] or is quoted by major Austrian daily newspapers as an expert. -

[00:04:34] Pia: Ah, he ends up on ORF. [laughs]

[00:04:36] Christina: [laughs] Exactly.

[00:04:38] It doesn't just deal with some crazy people,

[00:04:41] but extraordinary betrayals.

[00:04:43] He collects them a bit like little trophies.

[00:04:46] They always have to have something special about them,

[00:04:49] so that he wants to treat them in his wing.

[00:04:52] At the end of the novel, one wonders, as you have already indicated,

[00:04:56] that the synopsis "Who is actually still normal?"

[00:05:00] I have to say, the whole book is written at a very brisk pace

[00:05:04] and it's dremore and more, so to speak.

[00:05:07] So it's also funny, I think it's also situation-comic

[00:05:10] and it has such a mischievous undertone, such a Viennese smirk, I would have said.

[00:05:15] In addition to the main character of Primar Lobell, it's also about the writer Aliza Berg.

[00:05:22] She comes to Pavilion 44 to write a book about Lobell

[00:05:27] and then there's a real collection of funny-tragic characters,

[00:05:32] they're all drawn quite lovingly, I found.

[00:05:37] Among others, there's Mr. Dimsch, for example,

[00:05:39] who can be found naked on the roof of a mausoleum right at the beginning of the novel,

[00:05:46] where, after toasting the corpse of his dead childhood friend,

[00:05:52] where he has to be rescued by the fire department.

[00:05:55] There's Cecilie Weisz, who is his 80-something wife, who throws guinea pigs out of the window.

[00:06:00] And there's a man about dreiyyear-old called Jesus

[00:06:05] and he also considers himself to be the said one.

[00:06:07] And so it goes with the ensemble of characters.

[00:06:10] Something like that is still very dear to me.

[00:06:13] Pia: That sounds like a fun troupe.

[00:06:15] Christina: Exactly, so, funny-tragic, you have to say,

[00:06:18] but it's something that, if you also like this kind of absurd humor mag,

[00:06:27] very much.

[00:06:29] Pia: So I did, where I read the synopsis,

[00:06:32] I immediately thought of "Alice in Wonderland"

[00:06:35] and the saying "We're all mad here".

[00:06:37] So "We're all mad here" from the Cheshire Cat.

[00:06:40] Am I right in assuming that the main motif is,

[00:06:46] that we're all kind of crazy under quotation marks.

[00:06:49] And that has a bit to do with it,

[00:06:53] the portrayal of the patients in "Pavilion 44", does that have your point of view

[00:06:57] influenced or changed your view of mental illness?

[00:07:00] Christina: So first to the first question, you recognized that correctly.

[00:07:05] That's one of the motifs of the novel, I thought so too.

[00:07:10] Whereby "Pavillon 44" also plays with the idea on an almost meta-level,

[00:07:19] What actually is reality?

[00:07:21] Until you, we'll come back to that later,

[00:07:24] but until you're not quite sure yourself anymore,

[00:07:26] what is real now, both on this narrative level in the novel,

[00:07:32] so that's already being played with again and it almost goes a little deeper

[00:07:36] than this "We're actually all crazy" motif.

[00:07:39] But with that ... he's definitely working on that.

[00:07:42] In a very exciting, amusing way.

[00:07:45] And I think the second question was whether the novel is the representation

[00:07:52] of ... influenced my view of mental illness.

[00:07:56] A dear listener sent that to us by e-mail.

[00:08:00] So thank you very much for the question.

[00:08:02] I have to say, no, even before that I had a very differentiated view

[00:08:08] on mental illness even before that.

[00:08:10] I also had a very differentiated view [00:08:08] of mental illness before that

[00:08:17] in the psychiatric institution, especially at the beginning it seemed that way to me,

[00:08:20] was portrayed very realistically, I think the game with the insanity

[00:08:29] and also always a literary one, because they are literary characters.

[00:08:33] The premise of the novel, which we've already said,

[00:08:37] calls this concept of normality into question.

[00:08:40] What does it mean to be normal?

[00:08:42] In his interview with Boris last episode, Thomas Sautner

[00:08:47] talked about the fact that "crazy" also means "torn out".

[00:08:51] And for me, I understood that to mean being pulled out,

[00:08:54] out of society in the novel, so looking in from outside somewhere.

[00:08:59] And that's something that I like very much.

[00:09:02] Because you can often best judge what's going on from the outside.

[00:09:06] There's always this tension between fitting in and being different,

[00:09:12] because the crazy ones wouldn't be at Baumgartner Höhe,

[00:09:15] if they weren't somehow maladjusted to a degree, like Mr. Dimsch, for example,

[00:09:22] that he's sitting on the mausoleum so naked [both laugh].

[00:09:26] That goes too far, of course.

[00:09:28] But the novel captures this challenge and this tension incredibly well

[00:09:35] and also incredibly amusing.

[00:09:37] And Thomas Sautner himself said -

[00:09:41] it's a paraphrase, but - that I can often and usefully work off literature on the outsider

[00:09:45] and it also seemed to me that this was what motivated him a little to write the novel.

[00:09:53] Pia: What kind of expectations did you have for the book? Did you know what to expect or were you surprised?

[00:09:58] Christina: Maybe it already came out in the podcast and that applies to you a bit too,

[00:10:05] We're not so localized in the Austrian literary landscape, we've already confessed that.

[00:10:11] I've now started reading Austrians and I've realized that I like the narrative voice,

[00:10:19] and I was talking about this languor earlier and I think that's Thomas Sautner now,

[00:10:26] who is also based in Vienna and the novel is also set in Vienna, but that also applies to other Austrians that I've read:

[00:10:32] There's always a mischievous undertone and when I pick up an Austrian now,

[00:10:38] a novel written by an Austrian, an Austrian woman, then I expect this, yes, almost this mischievousness,

[00:10:46] that somehow always resonated in each of these novels.

[00:10:50] Nincsdorf [red. note: "Nincshof"] is an example or I have now, that has now landed on the Spiegel bestseller,

[00:10:55] "Little Monsters" read by Jessica Lindt and it's so tough ...

[00:11:03] Pia: You can't take it too seriously, you have to take it so a little...

[00:11:06] Christina: Yes, so with "Little Monsters", it's actually tragic, it's just told very quickly,

[00:11:13] but there's maybe something else, but it's always, it's like that,

[00:11:18] maybe it's just the dialect that makes it so homely [Pia laughs], I don't know.

[00:11:22] It certainly fulfilled that and you could always hear that in the complete narrative voice of "Pavillon 44".

[00:11:32] And I also knew that it dealt with this question: "What does it mean to be crazy?",

[00:11:38] I have to say that it worked through that for me almost as expected.

[00:11:42] So I didn't know where the novel would go and how it would end, it ends very [laughs softly] unexpectedly

[00:11:49] and it really becomes a bit like "Alice in Wonderland", so it's also socially critical,

[00:11:56] which is actually what these novels often like to be and it also fulfilled this expectation for me.

[00:12:03] Pia: And what is the writing style? Did you like it?

[00:12:06] Because it was your first Thomas Sautner, wasn't it?

[00:12:09] Christina: So the writing style, and we had a listener who told us,

[00:12:14] how he ... what he particularly liked about Sautner and he wrote that it was very easy and pleasant to read.

[00:12:20] And I can only agree with that wholeheartedly.

[00:12:23] Personally, however, I didn't like the change of perspective that Thomas Sautner used,

[00:12:31] between Primar Lobell in the drithird person and Aliza Berg in the first person.

[00:12:39] And what I really liked [laughs softly] were these dialogs and then the situation comedy, which simply came from the absurdity

[00:12:46] of some situations, for example when they were all standing in front of the bed during the ward round

[00:12:51] and this moment then unfolded when Jesus started talking to the Lobell

[00:12:57] and all the nurses and so on and Aliza was standing there as a kind of writer and that was already,

[00:13:03] he captured that very nicely and aptly, because it's also realistic in a way

[00:13:11] and yes, the realistic things are often the funniest, because you see them portrayed once.

[00:13:16] Pia: And the most important thing or one of the most important things, the main character, and that's actually what a lot of the novel is about,

[00:13:24] what you've touched on now, what do you think of him?

[00:13:27] of the Primar Lobell? Is he likeable, is he more of a neutral figure or perhaps unsympathetic, you don't know?

[00:13:35] Christina: Yes, so the Primar Lobell. - Pia: Oh dear. - I found it difficult to like him.

[00:13:41] He's fascinating enough as a literary character and also exactly what he's supposed to be, especially what he stands for in the end.

[00:13:52] Pia: But you're not going to be best friends. - Christina: No. - And now let's talk about whether there was a certain scene or a moment,

[00:14:00] that particularly stuck in your memory and why?

[00:14:04] Christna: Well, that's Cecilie Weisz, I think she's also Lobell's favorite patient.

[00:14:10] That's this 84-year-old woman, but she firmly claims and is convinced that she's 16,212 years old,

[00:14:19] she suffers from bipolar disorder, that's her diagnosis, and also has epileptic seizures.

[00:14:27] But these epileptic seizures leave her brain in such a state that the neurons fire so quickly that she is particularly creative.

[00:14:34] And that's also what the Lobell appreciates about her.

[00:14:37] At that moment I realized, okay, that's like a lot of things in the novel,

[00:14:42] It's also this exaggeration of this literary figure and "What is creativity anyway?"

[00:14:48] But she's very poetically inclined, so to speak, was committed and that's my favorite moment.

[00:14:53] And that is: She was watching the news with her guinea pigs and then according to her,

[00:15:01] So according to her, the guinea pigs couldn't stand watching the news any more and then threw themselves out of the window one by one. [both laugh briefly]

[00:15:08] So she was committed because she threw guinea pigs out of the window.

[00:15:13] Yes, exactly, and I thought that was funny. [both laugh softly]

[00:15:16] Pia: The poor guinea pig.

[00:15:18] Christina: And but, the spoiler, in the end she lives on the first floor with new guinea pigs and they're all fine. [both laugh softly]

[00:15:26] Pia: Yeah, then, okay.

[00:15:27] Then she's all right.

[00:15:29] Pia: Speaking of the end of the novel.

[00:15:32] How did she like the ending and what kind ofdruck did it leave her with?

[00:15:37] We'll stay spoiler-free, but in general.

[00:15:40] Christina: So there's always a postscript after many chapters.

[00:15:44] That then leads more and more into a meta-level.

[00:15:49] I really like that in principle mag .

[00:15:53] The novel itself ends in a very surreal way, it almostdrehurts.

[00:16:01] I agree with that mag and the plot is just getting more and more absurd.

[00:16:06] At some point, you ask yourself at the end, and I'll give this away, what is actually still real?

[00:16:12] Even you as the reader.

[00:16:15] But then it's also nice to ground yourself again with a less scrutinizing text.

[00:16:22] Because it's certainly a text that questions it - a bit pointedly:

[00:16:27] What is being crazy and all that.

[00:16:29] Pia: Sounds very exciting.

[00:16:31] Now I have the desire drato read the book.

[00:16:33] Christina: Well, I have to say, the book was great.

[00:16:35] Thank you, Shelly and Jacqueline for "Pavilion 44" and the challenge to read it in two weeks.

[00:16:40] Thank you, dear listeners, to everyone who sent questions or comments and for reading along so diligently.

[00:16:48] And now we can announce with a drum roll, Shelly, Jacqueline, prick up your ears:

[00:16:54] You're reading for 10/31. ... Pia, what are you reading?

[00:16:57] Pia: You're reading "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson.

[00:17:00] Christina: It's a short story from the 60s. Shirley Jackson was an American pacer,

[00:17:06] who, one might say, wrote such lunar horror or a lot out of lunar life.

[00:17:14] Pia: Yeah, you know her from "Hounting of Hill House."

[00:17:18] We've discussed that before.

[00:17:21] You know that from Netflix.

[00:17:24] And now, this time it's just a short story.

[00:17:27] Of course, we also have them in the library.

[00:17:30] As an anthology with other dark stories [laughs], you can also borrow them.

[00:17:37] Christina: And once again, you are cordially invited to read along.

[00:17:42] Send us your comments, questions and opinions before the next episode.

[00:17:48] As always, you can do this at post.stabbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at or on Instagram under the handle "stadtbibliothek.innsbruck".

[00:17:59] And if you don't get to read, that's no problem at all.

[00:18:03] You know, as always, the reviews are spoiler-free.

[00:18:08] And then you can just let Shelly and Jaci inspire you to read "The Lottery".

[00:18:13] Either ... Borrow it from our library, for example.

[00:18:17] And think dran, you can write to us until 28.10. telling us why you would like to read "Pavilion 44"

[00:18:25] or what you liked about it. And then you can win a signed copy of the novel.

[00:18:32] Pia: Thank you for listening, thank you for reading along, thank you for all the comments.

[00:18:37] We look forward to the next time or [laughs] Shelly and Jaci look forward to the next time with you. Bye bye!

[00:18:45] Christina: Nice reading!

[00:18:47] [Outro music]

[00:19:10] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [Voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to increased library visits. [Voice modulates]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Boris: Welcome, Thomas Sautner.

[00:00:23] Thomas, I'm delighted that you've come to Innsbruck.

[00:00:26] And as I learned earlier, you'll be reading in Innsbruck for the very first time.

[00:00:32] Thomas Sautner: Thank you Boris, you've broken the spell. I'm looking forward to being there. Thank you for the invitation.

[00:00:36] Boris: Yes, maybe you will become a regular guest in Innsbruck in the future. Thomas Sautner: I would be delighted.

[00:00:40] Boris: Me too. Maybe first of all for those of our listeners who don't know you yet.

[00:00:47] Magst you briefly tell us something about yourself?

[00:00:49] Thomas Sautner: No. Boris: No?

[00:00:50] Thomas Sautner: Well, there are authors who like to talk about themselves. I don't even like to talk about books, to be honest.

[00:00:56] I'd prefer readers to just read and not have to talk about anything else.

[00:01:01] Boris: That means you're looking forward to tonight's read-aloud.

[00:01:05] Thomas Sautner: Great for the podcast, ge? [both laugh]

[00:01:06] Boris: Then I'll do it the other way around and introduce you very briefly.

[00:01:15] So, Thomas Sautner comes from the Waldviertel, but you also live in Vienna.

[00:01:19] Have you written your ninth novel now, I think?

[00:01:22] Thomas Saunter: The tenth.

[00:01:23] Boris: It's the tenth. So that's the one you arrived with today.

[00:01:26] Pavilion, 44. Exactly.

[00:01:29] And it's set in a psychiatric facility.

[00:01:33] But I don't want to go into that any further now.

[00:01:35] You can read it yourself, the book, I would suggest.

[00:01:38] Or if this podcast is broadcast in the future,

[00:01:42] maybe you've already been to the event that's happening tonight.

[00:01:47] Now my very first question, which is now quite, just to give a certain plasticity

[00:01:53] maybe bring some plasticity into it:

[00:01:55] What do you drink when you write?

[00:01:57] Thomas Sautner: Coffee.

[00:01:59] I've tried everything, of course.

[00:02:02] All means.

[00:02:04] Coffee is still the best.

[00:02:06] I also take notes with all other drinks.

[00:02:11] But really writing, concentrated writing,

[00:02:14] the old coffee is still the best.

[00:02:17] Boris: And that's the French press, filter or portafilter?

[00:02:21] Thomas Sautner: It's terribly black and terribly much. [both laugh]

[00:02:24] Boris: Sounds like a stable Magen.

[00:02:29] Thomas Sautner: Yes, it's still working.

[00:02:31] Boris: Very good.

[00:02:33] Thomas Sautner: It's like this with me: I keep waking up at night

[00:02:36] and I used to be annoyed that I couldn't go back to sleep.

[00:02:39] In the meantime, I've recognized it as a great advantage.

[00:02:42] So I wake up at two o'clock in the morning and get up straight away,

[00:02:47] the light comes on, my laptop is next to me and then it starts.

[00:02:51] And then the mind is wonderfully fresh.

[00:02:53] I don't even need coffee.

[00:02:55] And then it goes really well, the writing, and after an hour or two,

[00:02:58] you get tired again.

[00:03:00] And after drei, four hours you wake up again

[00:03:02] and then the second morning begins, so to speak,

[00:03:05] at six, seven, eight.

[00:03:07] Great.

[00:03:09] A double beginning.

[00:03:11] Boris: Of course, then I think that's also an advantage of being a writer,

[00:03:14] that you can, of course, organize your time as freely as possible.

[00:03:17] Thomas Sautner: Of course, the partner next to me was a bit annoyed again.

[00:03:21] Boris: [laughs] It reminds me of those scenes from older movies,

[00:03:27] where some commissioners are lying in bed

[00:03:29] and then there's always this landline phone next to them in bed,

[00:03:32] that rings at night.

[00:03:34] Thomas Sautner:The heavy kilos back then.

[00:03:36] Boris:I have a question now, I'll be honest,

[00:03:39] my colleague wrote it down for me,

[00:03:41] because she was so interested in it.

[00:03:43] And since it's a topic that is currently

[00:03:45] is marching through all the creative professions.

[00:03:48] Are you worried that artificial intelligence

[00:03:52] make you obsolete as a writer at some point?

[00:03:56] Thomas Sautner: [laughs softly] No, maybe that's one reason,

[00:04:00] to worry more, that I'm not worried at all. [Boris laughs]

[00:04:04] If it were really the case that the AI could do better

[00:04:07] novels, yes, then it doesn't need me anyway.

[00:04:09] Then so be it.

[00:04:13] I don't know. Maybe I'm too naive, but I can't imagine,

[00:04:16] that AI writes more exciting novels,

[00:04:19] than humans. We discussed this today, in a slightly different way:

[00:04:23] You would have to program AI in such a way,

[00:04:25] so that it doesn't follow human programming,

[00:04:29] but is invited to think freely.

[00:04:32] That would be exciting,

[00:04:34] but whether that would be possible.

[00:04:37] And then there's the philosophical question,

[00:04:40] There are serious people who themselves say,

[00:04:45] we ourselves are AI, a Musk or something.

[00:04:50] And there is also the wonderful study,

[00:04:55] that our decisions are made in hundredths of a second,

[00:04:58] before we make them.

[00:05:00] But I'll just leave it at that

[00:05:03] to your question about whether the AI will write better in novels. If so, then I will

[00:05:07] read them if they really are better. Boris: The question I just asked myself now is then,

[00:05:11] what it will be like when I pick up the AI from the hotel on a rainy day in Innsbruck

[00:05:16] to accompany her to the evening event. Thomas Sautner: She'll demand it if she ticks like we do.

[00:05:21] Boris: Now a question that is still somewhat related to the theme of your current novel.

[00:05:29] Do you have the feeling that you often have to deal with crazy people? Thomas Sautner:Yes, of course, as soon as you

[00:05:37] look in the mirror, that's when it starts. You'll experience it today, I won't tell you now.

[00:05:44] You'll experience it today at the reading, a little action. Yeah, we're all crazy,

[00:05:49] right? And that's a good thing, if we've come out with it, are "crazy",

[00:05:55] because if we always stay where we are, we won't learn anything. And especially in the

[00:06:00] literature, it's the outsiders, those who have moved out of the scene, who are the

[00:06:06] scene, only because they've moved out - they're "crazy". Boris: Yes, yes, that's right,

[00:06:14] that's an exciting task too, although as an organizer I myself might also be

[00:06:18] a bit crazy, because otherwise I wouldn't have the selective perception,

[00:06:23] that I have. Thomas Sautner: Well, it's not crazy either. That's perhaps also what distinguishes us from

[00:06:26] AI. If the AI is programmed, as far as I understand it, then

[00:06:32] it does exactly what it's programmed to do. Of course, we as humans are also programmed,

[00:06:37] through genetics, through upbringing, but then we always surprise ourselves. That becomes

[00:06:45] not happen to AI. First of all, it won't deliver any surprises and it certainly won't

[00:06:50] it will realize that it surprises itself. Only then will it write better novels.

[00:06:54] Boris: Yeah- Thomas Sautner: Sorry, because, especially when I'm writing, I surprise myself. If I only wrote that

[00:07:01] what I had in mind, it would be a terribly boring book, then it would be a non-fiction book,

[00:07:06] at best. But it's always a surprise, writing. I can recommend it to anyone,

[00:07:12] doesn't necessarily have to publish, writing in itself is a wonderful tool to express yourself

[00:07:17] to discover yourself, to rediscover the world and only through the process of writing do

[00:07:22] thoughts, feelings arise that would not arise without this process of writing.

[00:07:27] It's like a magic trick that magicians, in this case we writers, use,

[00:07:32] themselves don't know how it works, but it works. Boris: It's also when I'm there

[00:07:36] may I add a thought of mine now, it's also the case that if you can't get anywhere yourself

[00:07:40] and talk to someone about it - monologically - suddenly solutions come up.

[00:07:45] Thomas Sautner: Or, just before, we have micro-problems, micro-stand problems, you have your

[00:07:50] dear colleague if she could help us, she came here and during the

[00:07:55] coming here it already worked. Boris: Now if you're surprised when you're writing yourself,

[00:08:00] by yourself, when do you have the feeling or does it happen again and again that you write something and then

[00:08:06] you read it and think: Wow, that was a great sentence, or ... ? Thomas Sautner: Of course that happens and

[00:08:11] you just can't make the mistake of letting minutes pass and then reading it again

[00:08:15] read it again. [both laugh] Every writer is always manic and depressed, of course, manic when you're writing

[00:08:24] when you think you've written something brilliant for a moment and depressed when you, when you've written something great

[00:08:28] read it the next day and drum it's always working and revising and again and again and again

[00:08:34] revising again, but actually the passages, the sentences, the aphorisms are the best,

[00:08:41] where you have done the least, where this surprise effect, this second I writes,

[00:08:47] then it's good and then it stays good even after repeated checking and reading.

[00:08:51] Boris: We're almost at the end of our "short and sweet" period, you can also call it "short and sweet"

[00:08:58] Concise". The last question I have now is, can you give our listeners

[00:09:05] recommend a book to our listeners? Thomas Sautner: Well, I can actually recommend anything by Richard Powers, but in particular

[00:09:11] perhaps the novel "Astonishment". Very touching, philosophically great, I read it with pleasure

[00:09:17] and goosebumps and great humility and joy, very good. Boris: Thank you very much, Thomas, for the interview and

[00:09:23] I'm looking forward to tonight. Thomas Sautner: Me too, and to many readers

[00:09:28] hopefully. Boris: Thank you. Thomas Sautner: All the best. [Outro music]

[00:09:31] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:09:59] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [modulated]

[00:00:07] [Intro music] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:28] My name is Christina and unfortunately Pia can't be here today.

[00:00:34] Pia, if you're listening to this, best wishes to you.

[00:00:37] But my dear listeners, while Pia's absence is of course extremely unfortunate,

[00:00:43] we can now, just between us, bring some variety to the foreword.

[00:00:48] You already know Shelley and Jaci.

[00:00:52] They've already hosted a few episodes of the foreword

[00:00:55] and now they've set Pia and I a reading challenge and challenged us to do it.

[00:01:01] Of course we can't say no to that.

[00:01:03] We'll even go one better draand officially announce the first Podcast Autumn Reading Festival.

[00:01:10] Only here in the foreword.

[00:01:12] What does that mean exactly?

[00:01:14] October and November will be literary months for us.

[00:01:18] We set each other literary challenges and read for -

[00:01:23] and if you like with - you novels and then discuss them in the following episode.

[00:01:30] So, we'll announce a novel in the episode you're listening to

[00:01:36] and then you have two weeks to browse through it.

[00:01:40] We use the episode there drauf to discuss, talk about the novel,

[00:01:46] give background information and interesting facts

[00:01:49] and if you feel like it, just read along.

[00:01:53] And because it's so much more fun for us, the hosts of the podcast will set each other reading challenges.

[00:02:01] So we'll be surprised and won't even know until the recording of each episode,

[00:02:06] what we'll be reading with you next.

[00:02:10] Let's listen together to the voice message that Shelley and Jaci left us:

[00:02:16] [Beginning voice message] Jaci: Hello, dear Christina, hello, dear Pia. We're here from the off with your reading challenge.

[00:02:24] Shelly: And we thought that on October 3rd, that's Thursday at 7 pm in our event hall,

[00:02:33] the reading with Thomas Sautner and his new novel "Pavillion 44" is taking place,

[00:02:39] so that you can prepare for it in the best possible way and therefore read the book.

[00:02:44] Jaci: Exactly. [laughs] So we hope you enjoy reading it and we'll see you in two weeks. Shelly: Right, have fun. [End voicemail]

[00:02:51] Of course, that's a very good idea for an event that's happening in the house today.

[00:02:57] That means today is the day the podcast goes online, which is October 3rd.

[00:03:02] Means for all the last-minute protesters.

[00:03:07] So that you can assess whether you want to read the book with us,

[00:03:11] just have a look at the show notes, there you will find all the interesting facts about the book,

[00:03:16] with details of the contents and what it's about.

[00:03:19] I'm very happy, thank you Shelly and Jacqueline for the great challenge.

[00:03:23] If you feel like it now, why don't you read the novel with us?

[00:03:27] We'll meet again in two weeks and discuss the book, what we liked, what we didn't like,

[00:03:33] what the title is all about and lots of other fun facts about the book.

[00:03:37] You don't get to read? That doesn't matter.

[00:03:40] You can still enjoy the episode and be inspired.

[00:03:43] And then maybe for the book we're going to read together next

[00:03:47] and then announce at the end of the next episode.

[00:03:50] Have you read the book or are you even reading it with us? Let us know what you think

[00:03:56] and we have a great prize for everyone who enters,

[00:04:00] We are giving away a signed copy of "Pavillon 44".

[00:04:04] Just write to us on Instagram

[00:04:07] under the handle "stadtbibliothek.innsbruck"

[00:04:11] or at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at.

[00:04:16] So, let us know what you think.

[00:04:19] We'll include them in the podcast and in our discussion about the book

[00:04:23] and you have the chance to win a signed copy of "Pavillon 44".

[00:04:28] And, a little birdie whispered to me that the Thomas Sautner

[00:04:33] will be on the podcast for a short interview.

[00:04:36] Of course, we are particularly excited about that.

[00:04:38] So all that remains is for me to wish you a good read.

[00:04:42] Don't forget to let us know how it goes.

[00:04:45] And we'll see you in the next episode, where we'll discuss "Pavilion 44" together with Pia.

[00:04:51] Bye and see you next time. Happy reading!

[00:04:54] [Outro music]

[00:05:16] [Boris speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:05:23] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Boris speaks]

[00:00:00] [voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to increased library visits. [modulated]

[00:00:07] [Intro music] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the foreword, the podcast of the city library

[00:00:25] Innsbruck. I am Christina and Pia is at this time, or the time of this

[00:00:32] recording at an important training course, namely on the new publications that are coming out around October

[00:00:38] coming out for the Frankfurt Book Fair in October. In the last episode

[00:00:45] Pia and I shared our language story with you and told you why we both

[00:00:49] speak English and hopefully gave one or the other of you some

[00:00:56] inspiration on how to get started in another language. In today's episode

[00:01:03] will once again deal with the topic of multilingualism, but this time not only from a personal

[00:01:10] point of view, but from a cultural-historical and, above all, library-educational perspective. As

[00:01:17] already announced, I have enlisted the help of an expert. Today is

[00:01:23] our dear colleague Veronika is with us. Veronika, welcome to the podcast. - Veronika: Yes,

[00:01:29] hello - Christina: Would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners, like maybe tell us what

[00:01:35] what your role is in our house? - Veronika: Yes, I'm a librarian here in the building with a focus on

[00:01:42] target group work. That's a very common word for us. I'll perhaps say very briefly,

[00:01:47] what we mean by that. In the library, we don't just offer media for loan,

[00:01:54] we also offer all kinds of events and opportunities to take part, to be involved,

[00:02:02] to listen, to discuss, to learn, to philosophize for our audience,

[00:02:08] to be there for different target groups. On the one hand, children and young people,

[00:02:14] but also adults, people with specific needs, such as people

[00:02:19] with German as a second language, senior citizens. But basically everyone and

[00:02:26] everyone belongs to one of our target groups. And we develop specific offers for

[00:02:32] different levels. That's actually my main task here at the company. - Christina: Exactly, and you do

[00:02:40] all these nice things, for example, it has, of course with the help of other colleagues,

[00:02:47] who also diligently organized it - you already know Viktor, he was already on our podcast

[00:02:53] also - the "language café", for example. - Veronika: Yes, that's something that we started in

[00:03:02] our target group team, I think, yes, drei years ago, the so-called language aperitivo,

[00:03:10] where once a year, always in the fall, in September, we invite people to come and chat in a

[00:03:19] language, which is different every time. We've already hosted Italian. We had Italian last

[00:03:26] year we had an English tea time and this week we had Eric Ginestet with us,

[00:03:36] who explained to us in French exactly which wine to drink with which cheese [Christina laughs softly]

[00:03:45] should drink. And these are always very nice events, where it's simply about losing your shyness,

[00:03:52] speaking in a different language, just getting involved in a playful way. And that is

[00:03:58] always very well received. - Christina: Yes, for everyone who hasn't been there yet, it really is

[00:04:03] a very special event, which also takes place on the surface at our reading café. There

[00:04:10] there's always something good to eat, to try, to taste, because language also goes through

[00:04:15] the Magen or something similar. - Vero: [amused] Exactly. - And it's a wonderful atmosphere. So keep an eye out for the next one

[00:04:21] language aperitif and it's totally worth it. It's a whole cozy affair, yes, every time like this

[00:04:30] enchanting, even when we're on duty. We really, really like these days. Veronika,

[00:04:35] you have a special relationship with the French language. Is that right? - Veronika: Yes, too. I am myself

[00:04:44] grew up in a binational family. My mother is Belgian and my father was Austrian.

[00:04:54] We grew up here in Austria, in Innsbruck. But of course we also spent a lot of time in

[00:05:00] Belgium with my grandmother and several languages were always spoken there. On the one hand

[00:05:07] Flemish, of course. Flemish is the Belgian variant of Dutch and on the other hand

[00:05:13] also French and, of course, German. It is usually the case that Dutch-speaking

[00:05:19] people understand German very well. It's not quite the same the other way around. There's something about that

[00:05:23] to do with this sound shift. Linguists could now,

[00:05:27] could explain to us exactly why that is. And this diversity of languages,

[00:05:32] that was actually always normal for us children, me and my sisters.

[00:05:39] Also the situation of sitting at the dinner table with relatives and not understanding everything.

[00:05:44] So my mother and my aunts, they spoke Dutch at the table, that

[00:05:50] we understood half of it. And whenever it was about something that we children didn't

[00:05:56] were supposed to understand, which was only for adults, they suddenly switched to French

[00:06:01] switched to French. We couldn't do that back then as children. - Christina: Aha! -and whenever he suddenly spoke French

[00:06:06] was spoken, then we knew, okay, now it's about something really, really exciting, [Christina laughs]

[00:06:11] something really interesting that we weren't allowed to know. And in the course of time, you have one thing

[00:06:17] understood one thing or another. But this situation of several languages, the situation of understanding one part,

[00:06:27] not understanding one part, that's something I've been very familiar with since childhood. Yes. - Christina: And I

[00:06:33] I can imagine that this is also very useful knowledge, also for your work,

[00:06:39] also in terms of working on the language and the languages. Pia and I have been working together

[00:06:47] last episode about how this is a second language, we called it,

[00:06:51] to "adopt". And from the very privileged position of being able to do that through education

[00:06:56] voluntarily in the country where we actually speak our first language,

[00:07:03] where our first language is the official language and where we actually have to search,

[00:07:10] to have our "adopted second language", English, around us a bit. That's why,

[00:07:16] what you're describing is a completely different situation. We have a lot of

[00:07:21] people who also live in Austria who don't necessarily have that by choice,

[00:07:27] that they immerse themselves in German as a second language. Yes. - Veronika: Yes. So I think generally multilingual

[00:07:38] growing up multilingual or living with several languages in the course of your life also promotes

[00:07:47] language awareness very strongly. And I think you can also see that when you look at the current

[00:07:54] German-language literature, there are a lot of authors who use German

[00:08:01] as a second language and write excellently in German. So if you take, for example

[00:08:08] this year's Bachmann Prize winner, Tijan Sila, by the way, highly recommended reading.

[00:08:15] Tijan Sila grew up in Bosnia and then moved with her family as a result of the

[00:08:22] Bosnian war to Germany in his youth and now writes in

[00:08:30] German and in the German-speaking world there are a lot of cultural workers who have only just learned German

[00:08:37] secondarily, as a second language, and are now very productive with this language.

[00:08:45] So multilingualism can also be a kind of kick-start to creativity and a very

[00:08:54] conscious, very reflective use of language. - Christina: You said that it strengthens your understanding of language and

[00:09:02] I think it also strengthens empathy, because communication doesn't just rely on

[00:09:09] linguistic level, of course, and especially when you get into a situation where you're perhaps

[00:09:14] don't understand each other linguistically, you get to know other communication models all the better.

[00:09:20] Veronika: Absolutely, yes, and I would also just say that every language has a different one, brings a

[00:09:31] different culture of communication. You drÃexpress yourself differently. It's not just different

[00:09:38] words and a different grammar, it's a different kind of linguistic behavior. So for example

[00:09:46] For example, my mother always told me how she came to Austria in the 60s after

[00:09:52] Tyrol in a Tyrol that was still very traditional at the time. She was really exotic, so to speak

[00:09:58] as a foreigner here - she was amazed at how little people actually spoke to children. So

[00:10:05] as she was a much more linguisticdruck, a much stronger way of speaking to each other, a

[00:10:16] embedding in local words. So we were really wrapped up in a lot as children

[00:10:25] linguistic caresses. I'm trying to say that in Tyrol, people aren't affectionate with children!

[00:10:32] But it's a different kind. For example, in Fleming there are these very local forms of diminution

[00:10:40] of names. So every name is changed somehow. You're not "Veronika", you're

[00:10:49] "Veronika-ke", or "Veronique-kske" and so everyone is named like that with locality. And that has

[00:11:00] a completely different meaning. And for them, this rather harsh tone with us, which also had a

[00:11:06] certain aesthetics, I wouldn't deny that, but this rather rough tone was for

[00:11:13] very disconcerting for her at the beginning. And so every language brings its own culture of togetherness,

[00:11:19] and there's this wonderful quote from Walter Benjamin: "Every language communicates itself."

[00:11:27] So every language is not just a medium for conveying something, but every language also has

[00:11:33] its own message, its own content. And I believe that regardless of whether you're speaking in a language

[00:11:42] growing up in one language, growing up multilingual or acquiring language secondarily,

[00:11:47] simply getting involved in another language has the potential,

[00:11:55] that you broaden your own world view a little. And that's why it's definitely worth it,

[00:12:02] to deal with languages as well. - Christna: Do you think language has something to do with identity?

[00:12:09] Veronika: Absolutely. Absolutely. So it starts with the voice. You also modulate your voice differently,

[00:12:18] when you speak it in a different language. Language also comes, if you look at it in a very basic way

[00:12:26] from the body via our vocal apparatus. Language has a lot to do with who we are,

[00:12:34] who we want to be seen as and what defines us. And a lot of people who have migrated

[00:12:43] and now live in a different place, in a different language, also describe this

[00:12:48] point in time when they start living in another language after many years in a new, acquired

[00:12:55] language to dream. That's often the case - it shows a deeper immersion in a language.

[00:13:05] And a very nice example, also in literary terms, if you want to look at what language has to do with

[00:13:11] identity, for example Elias Canetti, who is a very important, great author of the

[00:13:20] 20th century, who wrote in German, who grew up speaking four languages. He was born in

[00:13:28] Rustchuk [red. note: today Ruse]. That's in what is now Bulgaria, in a Jewish family, a Sephardic-Jewish

[00:13:39] family. That means they spoke Ladino at home, the language of the Sephardic Jews

[00:13:45] and Jews, but were then also surrounded by Bulgarian, of course in the neighborhood, also by

[00:13:52] Turkish, because it was still so influenced by the Ottoman Empire. That was also the region,

[00:13:57] was also part of the Ottoman Empire for a long time. And his parents only lived together

[00:14:04] spoke German as a couple, very exclusively. The children weren't supposed to understand it. And he then

[00:14:12] only learned German from his mother or wrote in German when his father died.

[00:14:17] And then he later said that his Bulgarian nanny, for example,

[00:14:25] told him fairy tales in Bulgarian. And then later in life he said that he couldn't now

[00:14:30] no more sentences

[00:14:32] in Bulgarian anymore. He wouldn't be able to speak the language like that anymore, but that sound,

[00:14:37] of the Bulgarian fairy tales that his nanny told him, that sound, he still hears it and

[00:14:47] it also influences his literary work in German. So that's not how languages can be

[00:14:55] really separate like that. Every language that enters our lives also influences our sense of language,

[00:15:03] our sense of rhythm, of timbre, of linguistic melody. And yes, in literature

[00:15:11] you can understand that very well. But it's also for all of us, even for those who don't write,

[00:15:17] something that is very important in our lives and that we should also pay more attention to.

[00:15:23] Christina: Mhm. And above all, the positive attention that it actually deserves. In the interview or

[00:15:31] in the run-up to our recording, we've already discussed a few topics and there

[00:15:39] you also said that culturally and historically it was actually the norm to be multilingual. You have

[00:15:47] already mentioned several examples of - how many people, in this case writers, you yourself

[00:15:56] also grew up multilingual, so quite naturally multilingual. Can you tell us

[00:16:02] tell us something else from this cultural-historical aspect, because today you sometimes have the feeling

[00:16:08] in public discourse as if multilingualism is something new and possibly even something bad,

[00:16:16] which we, and I think you'll agree with me, don't see it that way at all. Don't you? - Veronika: Mhm, yes. - And maybe

[00:16:24] can you say something about that ... Veronika: Yes, well, if you take a closer look at the history of Europe now,

[00:16:30] the idea that a state has a language, that actually only came about with the emergence of the

[00:16:42] modern nation states, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries. If we now take the

[00:16:49] take France as an example. There were many languages in France, many regional

[00:16:56] languages, Occitan, Breton, on the border in the border region with the Netherlands,

[00:17:04] Flemish, in the border region with Spain, Catalan. So there were many languages and it was also

[00:17:14] simply the political will at some point to have a uniform national language.

[00:17:20] And these small languages, the regional languages, the minority languages,

[00:17:25] were actually, in the broadest sense, a violent process, yes, they were

[00:17:34] simply no longer offered a place. And some of these languages were then also banned in

[00:17:40] this emergence of the modern nation states. And there were simply many regions that had

[00:17:47] history have always been bilingual, if you take Alsace, for example, where

[00:17:52] German and French have always been present, but also if you take Eastern Europe,

[00:17:58] where many regions had several languages. And of course there were always political issues as well

[00:18:03] and also the result of armed conflicts as to which language would prevail where.

[00:18:10] In Austria, too, we have minority languages like Croatian and Slovenian and

[00:18:17] I think modern democracies today can always be judged by that,

[00:18:24] how they deal with their minority languages. - Christina: Mhm. -it's also a yardstick for how they deal

[00:18:32] with diversity, how much diversity is allowed, is it allowed to be normal? And especially in

[00:18:40] Europe, many people have always been bilingual, for example Latin was used for a long time

[00:18:47] time Latin was the [emphasized] language not only of religion, but also of science. Until the 18th century

[00:18:54] universities Latin was simply spoken as a language, and later French as the language

[00:19:00] of the nobility or diplomats, then of course also the Jews and Jewesses, who usually also had a

[00:19:07] second language, be it Yiddish or Ladino, and cultivated it. So a lot,

[00:19:15] many more people were multilingual than we think today, that everything used to be so uniform

[00:19:23] would have been. - Christina: And our listeners may have already noticed that in the

[00:19:30] podcast we mainly use the terms "first and second language". But it's still called

[00:19:38] differently, especially in everyday life. What do you think about the terms "foreign language" and "mother tongue"?

[00:19:45] Or rather: Why do we choose to use these other terms in a library context?

[00:19:56] Yes, "foreign language" is of course somehow tainted with this word "foreign" with such an evaluation,

[00:20:06] that we don't like to use. That's why we tend to talk about "second language". The word

[00:20:14] "mother tongue", I think there are many different levels to it. On the one hand, of course, it has

[00:20:22] there's also something nice about it, most of us learn our first language in communication as well

[00:20:31] with their mother or with the person who plays this role of mother, whether it's a woman or a man

[00:20:39] takes on this role of mother. It also shows that language is embedded in a

[00:20:48] social relationship, in this case the first, most important childhood relationship. But of course the word

[00:20:56] "mother tongue" is also ideologically charged somewhere, just like the word "homeland" is ideologically charged

[00:21:05] is ideologically charged. I don't think we should completely ban any words from our vocabulary now

[00:21:13] have to. It's about how consciously we use them. - Christina: It's about mindful use of words. - Veronika: Exactly. - Christina: So

[00:21:20] we don't necessarily exclude them from our language use. We are concerned with that,

[00:21:26] being mindful of all our fellow human beings. And I agree with you on all of that, except perhaps

[00:21:32] in the term "mother tongue", because for me it is, but you've already said something about that,

[00:21:38] that "mother" as a word is ideologically charged, independent of "language". But I think,

[00:21:45] that would be another podcast in its own right. - Veronika: We could talk a lot about that. So the topic

[00:21:51] Mother is of course generally emotional, ideological, socially also of course in terms of gender

[00:22:01] is incredibly loaded with meanings. But that also shows the interesting thing again

[00:22:06] Language. No word stands alone, but always brings a lot of context with it. - Christina: You have

[00:22:15] earlier about what I think is a plea for an appreciative approach to different

[00:22:22] languages, be it the, I'll call them roughly "official languages" or the "main languages" in

[00:22:28] a country or the minority languages. And that's also something you have to take into account in the program design

[00:22:36] that you try to portray. And the first thing I think of is picture book cinema. Because that has

[00:22:43] a special feature. What is that? - Veronika: We've always organized a cinema for pre-school children with their

[00:22:52] accompanying adults, which are then called reading time or family matinees,

[00:23:00] often with a picture book movie. And we do them, not always, but at regular intervals

[00:23:08] intervals in several languages, bilingually, to also create the situation that on the stage

[00:23:16] a second language is spoken. And that creates another level, so to see,

[00:23:27] also for people who don't have German as their first language. "My language is not only accepted here",

[00:23:36] somehow, or respected, "it's also brought onto the stage." That creates an additional

[00:23:44] piece of appreciation for a language. At the same time, we always design it in such a way that in each,

[00:23:51] even for those who don't speak that language, so that everything is easy to understand in German

[00:23:58] and even if you don't speak the other language, you understand everything. But then you are

[00:24:05] in a situation where you don't understand every single sentence that is spoken on stage.

[00:24:09] And this situation of not understanding individual parts is also very important with regard to the

[00:24:20] language awareness. When I myself have been exposed to this situation, I understand

[00:24:26] something, as you often do when you're traveling. You might be surrounded by people and

[00:24:32] you just don't understand a word. That's also a situation of uncertainty. But to face it

[00:24:38] I think it's very important to expose yourself to that. Because then again, as you mentioned earlier,

[00:24:45] strengthens empathy for how others feel when they're here and don't understand a lot of things. And we

[00:24:52] also want to show that what our credo is in our target group work team is that we want to be a

[00:24:59] language-friendly environment. To show: "You who come to us in the library, you are with

[00:25:11] all your languages welcome here." - Christina: And in addition to the reading times for the children, we also have other

[00:25:21] offers, for example the "reading time in simple German", which is organized by a dear colleague

[00:25:28] is organized. This is open to anyone who wants to improve their German without having to register. You can

[00:25:34] just come along from level A2 up to, roughly, A2/B1. But if you're not sure,

[00:25:44] just drop by and let the whole thing sink in. Of course, we still have media

[00:25:51] on German as a second language in the building, from pre-school onwards, really across all age groups

[00:25:57] right through to adults. You can also just come by and get help from us

[00:26:06] or get advice or simply borrow something. And of course all the other

[00:26:12] services are also available in the city library. And we have, if you then maybe in a

[00:26:18] first language, we also have first language books in various languages, be it - we have

[00:26:25] now talked about French, I mean French, Spanish, English anyway, we did last

[00:26:30] week, but also Arabic, Turkish and Russian. - Veronika: Yes, what I would also like to emphasize

[00:26:40] is that in our team, we also do a lot of counseling for the people who come to us in the

[00:26:47] library and we make an effort - we can't cover all languages, of course, but we

[00:26:54] do have some colleagues in the team who can advise in different languages,

[00:27:00] in English of course, in French, in Spanish, we have a colleague who speaks Arabic.

[00:27:06] So we also make an effort there - Christina: Italian. - Veronika: Italian, we also have a colleague, of course, who speaks Italian

[00:27:13] as her first language. So we make an effort on many levels to accommodate people and also

[00:27:20] to show that we are open and that even if someone comes where we don't speak the language, i.e. where we now

[00:27:28] don't have anyone in the team who can cover it linguistically. Yes, we've still found ways,

[00:27:36] to support people so that they can find what they're looking for and what they need from us,

[00:27:43] even if there are language barriers, that we try to accommodate them. - Christina: And with this

[00:27:51] beautiful closing words, Veronika, I would like to thank you very much for your time, for your

[00:27:57] expertise and for this very pleasant and informative conversation. - Veronika: Thank you very much. - Christina: Then goodbye

[00:28:04] from the foreword today. You just tune in again next time. It continues excitingly

[00:28:10] in October. Write to us, tell us your first language, if it's not German.

[00:28:17] You can do this at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at or also on Instagram or on

[00:28:26] Facebook. Until then, all the best! [Outro music]

[00:28:29] [Pia speaks] The foreword is a production of the city library

[00:28:58] Innsbruck and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] [Voice modulated] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library. [Voice modulated]

[00:00:06] [Intro music] Christina: Hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:27] My name is Christina - Pia: and I am Pia -

[00:00:30] Christina: And after a short break due to illness, we're back now

[00:00:35] with the next episode. This time we've put the next two episodes, both this one and the next one, under the motto "Languages". Right Pia?

[00:00:46] Pia: Yes, exactly.

[00:00:47] Christina: Because September is all about "language" in the whole city library,

[00:00:53] we will now be dealing with it in the next two episodes. In today's episode, Pia and I introduce you to our own language history.

[00:01:03] And we would like to invite you to share your experiences with bilingualism or multilingualism with us.

[00:01:11] As always, you can write to us using the hashtag #GemeinsamBesser on Instagram under the handle "stadtbibliothek.innsbruck"

[00:01:19] or you can also send an email to post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at.

[00:01:28] Tell us about your experiences and we will then share them with each other and with our other listeners in the podcast.

[00:01:37] In the next episode, our dear colleague Veronika will visit us.

[00:01:42] She will of course introduce herself, but this much can be revealed:

[00:01:47] She is responsible for many events and projects at our company, grew up bilingually herself

[00:01:54] and will then give us insights into the advantages of multilingualism from both a personal and a library pedagogical perspective.

[00:02:06] Because Pia, you're going on a training course next week, right? What are you doing there?

[00:02:12] Pia: Yes, I'm at the Wolfgangsee. It's about new publications, specifically about the Frankfurt Book Fair.

[00:02:21] What kind of new books are there, not just novels, but also non-fiction books and books for children and young people.

[00:02:27] I'm already very excited.

[00:02:29] Christina: I believe you.

[00:02:30] Yes, and now we don't want to keep you in suspense any longer and let's talk about today's topic, namely our language history.

[00:02:37] We believe that the history of language is a reflection of many people and, in particular, probably also of our generation.

[00:02:46] We've already come out at some point in the past. Pia, we're both millennials.

[00:02:51] Me in the middle, you at the bottom.

[00:02:54] And yes, of course there are certain globalization tendencies where you learn - I can spoil it, give it away - English.

[00:03:06] Pia: Yes, I think that's the same for everyone.

[00:03:09] Christina: Thank you very much.

[00:03:10] Pia: Yes, thank you.

[00:03:11] In Austria at least.

[00:03:14] Christina: And we know that very, very many of you, dear listeners there drauÃen, are also multilingual.

[00:03:21] And that probably has very different reasons:

[00:03:25] Several languages are spoken in your family or you had a language at school that you were particularly fond of.

[00:03:33] Or maybe you simply decided to take up a new hobby and enrolled on a language course,

[00:03:40] maybe on wifi or online via an app.

[00:03:43] For me, it was definitely a mixture of education and interest.

[00:03:50] My second language is English.

[00:03:55] So now I can also say that I speak, write and understand English fluently.

[00:04:02] Also - or [lapses into strong Tyrolean dialect] a if you notice the Tyrolean when you speak. [laughs]

[00:04:07] Especially when we're talking to international guests downstairs and you've just come from a German-speaking consultation,

[00:04:18] it's always a bit difficult to switch, isn't it?

[00:04:20] Pia: Yes, I also find, well I can actually speak English well, but then at that moment I'm always like,

[00:04:25] I'm not draready to speak English right now.

[00:04:27] Sometimes it's too fast, this switch.

[00:04:29] Christina: [smiling] And then I hear the flattest dialect in my English.

[00:04:33] So I studied "British English" especially for this,

[00:04:36] where there were extra courses and seminars and tests to see if you spoke "British English" enough.

[00:04:44] [sighs] But then you watch a season of Bridgerton and then you're fine. [both laugh]

[00:04:50] It's like that with me, I've learned a lot of other languages too,

[00:04:55] or started to learn them and am still learning them.

[00:04:59] But English is the language where I would say I'm pretty much at first language level by now.

[00:05:06] And like many others, and as I'm sure is the case with many of you, it's part of

[00:05:14] and regardless of the language level, it's a natural part of my everyday life.

[00:05:20] Pia, what's it like for you? What language do you speak as, what is your second language?

[00:05:29] Pia: Well, I grew up monolingual, like you.

[00:05:33] But reading in other languages was always part of the learning process for me too.

[00:05:38] I think that also helps you get more into the language, that it becomes normal.

[00:05:43] For me it was also English, like so many others have been and still are.

[00:05:49] And for me, especially at the beginning, it was children's books that helped me to get into it,

[00:05:54] Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, because the language is a bit, not simpler,

[00:06:02] but it's just a bit simpler, a bit more child-friendly and then you can get into the whole thing better.

[00:06:07] I also learned a bit of French and Italian, but that was over straight away.

[00:06:13] Then I also started reading a bit in the languages, The Little Prince in French, for example,

[00:06:18] but that was rather reserved, let's put it that way.

[00:06:23] And what I also wanted to say is that I didn't just read things to learn the language,

[00:06:29] but also looked at it. So for me, media in English was generally very important.

[00:06:34] For example, I also watched a lot of children's movies in English,

[00:06:38] because it's the same thing again, children's films are just easier than adult films.

[00:06:42] Especially the Disney films, it's all recorded in a studio and then it's just easier to consume.

[00:06:48] That really helped me, for example.

[00:06:50] Christina: That's interesting, that's actually true, the point about: Everything that is recorded in the studio is of course easier to understand.

[00:06:57] Pia: Exactly, and I wanted to point that out again, because we also have DVDs and films in the library,

[00:07:03] both on site as DVDs, but also digitally for streaming on Filmfriend.

[00:07:09] And Filmfriend has even put together a special collection that's all about original versions,

[00:07:17] which might also be quite interesting for our listeners.

[00:07:20] Christina: And with Filmfriend, Pia, I think you can also change the language, is that right?

[00:07:25] Christina: Exactly, so there are original versions, there are also original versions with subtitles,

[00:07:29] but you can also switch back and forth between the languages.

[00:07:32] Of course, that's also possible with DVDs on site.

[00:07:35] Christina: And it's great that we have a huge selection of films for different age groups.

[00:07:41] That means there are children's films, youth films and films for adults both at Filmfriend and on site.

[00:07:51] And that's actually great.

[00:07:55] So when someone asks me, "I'm just learning X/Y language, what should I do?"

[00:08:00] and then I always say media, so consumption of whatever in the target language.

[00:08:09] Pia: Yes, because that just helps, you just get more into the whole thing.

[00:08:13] And in English, I've got to the point where it's just part of my everyday life,

[00:08:17] and whether it's a YouTube video or a movie or a book, it doesn't matter,

[00:08:22] but you just get into it a lot more and it's just become normal,

[00:08:26] that I can simply listen, read and watch in English.

[00:08:29] Christina: And there are different forms of language acquisition and neither of us are experts on that,

[00:08:35] but I can say from my own experience that there is, of course, this very school-based language acquisition system,

[00:08:42] especially when it no longer plays such a big role in language learning in your free time.

[00:08:48] Of course, we also have language courses for different languages, so very different languages,

[00:08:54] you can also borrow and learn from us.

[00:08:57] It's still very classically structured didactically, with different books at different language levels

[00:09:03] and even with CDs.

[00:09:06] But we all know that those of us with an affinity for languages simply like it.

[00:09:12] There are also apps and that's what works a lot with so-called gamification.

[00:09:18] And then it's no longer so school-based, but works a lot via the reward system

[00:09:25] and staying on top of this fun dran, because the only thing you have to do is just practise, practise, practise.

[00:09:31] And what we've just described, the method, that also exists and that you simply surround yourself

[00:09:39] with the language as much as possible.

[00:09:42] That's why you learn, of course, if you go to another country without knowing the language and then you're there for six months,

[00:09:49] then at some point you can speak the language, provided you don't have anyone there to speak your first language with you.

[00:09:56] Pia: You can't get out of it, you have to get it again at some point a little bit, at least.

[00:10:00] Christina: Exactly, and then you kind of learn through it, sometimes it seems like osmosis to me. [laughs]

[00:10:06] For example, I sit there, I don't know about you, but I don't sit there and learn vocabulary one list at a time.

[00:10:13] That really gives me the shivers. Because I have a gamification app for that, so I play with it a bit and then it's fun.

[00:10:20] Pia: Yes, you just bring it into your everyday life, it's like Candy Crush [laughs] but for languages.

[00:10:26] Christina: Yes, exactly. [Laughs]

[00:10:28] Pia, what else I wanted to ask you, at what age did you start learning English?

[00:10:33] Pia: Good question, in elementary school I think we started with a very basic course, but that was really just the very simplest ...

[00:10:41] Christina: What was it like for you in the drithird grade?

[00:10:43] Pia: It could be, but I honestly find it very difficult to remember. [laughs]

[00:10:47] Christina: Because I'm a few years older than you, it was also in primary school for me.

[00:10:51] And I remember that there was a kind of "pilot project" in our school for children who were interested in it,

[00:10:58] that they started learning in the drith grade.

[00:11:00] I'm sure that's now standard or has always been normal at many schools,

[00:11:05] but I remember being asked if I would be interested.

[00:11:10] And I'll never forget how the teacher suddenly wrote "apple" drainstead of "Apfel".

[00:11:20] But the picture was the same, namely that of an apple.

[00:11:23] And then I have this idea that there is another term for one thing.

[00:11:30] Pia, at the same time: there is a term. [both laugh]

[00:11:31] Christina: Yes, and that's when the first spark was there, that I enjoy languages,

[00:11:36] because it was the first tiny little glimpse behind the curtain of another world, a little bit, wasn't it?

[00:11:43] Pia: Yes, I felt the same way. But I can't remember drin, not exactly dran when that was.

[00:11:50] I only know where I read Harry Potter in English for the first time,

[00:11:54] I had to google lots and lots of words.

[00:11:57] Or just not google it.

[00:11:59] Look it up on the Internet. [laughs]

[00:12:00] Christina: I was just going to say, I don't think there's ... Pia: ... or Duden ... [both laugh]

[00:12:03] Pia: But... and I made lists because I didn't know all the things.

[00:12:10] But I still sometimes just read or continued to read drÃbecause otherwise it gets frustrating at some point.

[00:12:14] Christina: I think I've read, like I said, everything for private use,

[00:12:19] but, at best, you understand, I think it was something between 80 and 90 percent of the vocabulary that's on a page.

[00:12:27] And then you can start reading the book.

[00:12:29] Incidentally, this is also advice that I completely disregard, but I also just start reading it and then hope for the best.

[00:12:36] Pia: [laughs] Exactly, I felt the same way. And that was fascinating, because then I read it,

[00:12:39] and I know that it was exhausting to read it, but it just interested me.

[00:12:42] The book and the topic and so I kept reading.

[00:12:46] And then, years later, I read it again and suddenly I realized how easy it is. - Christina: Yes, exactly.

[00:12:51] Pia: And that was the moment when I checked, oh, okay, it works too.

[00:12:55] I can read it in English without any problems.

[00:12:57] That's great. You really have your own... well, you realize how far you've come in the language.

[00:13:03] Christina: Yes, that's so, so, so great, because it takes what feels like forever.

[00:13:07] And especially when you're reading a book and then you understand very little and it's so exhausting, it can sometimes be frustrating.

[00:13:15] And then to see that it's really easy drato stick with it and it leads to interest that you can do it at some point.

[00:13:21] I don't know, was it like that for you?

[00:13:23] I did too, one reason why it was English for me, apart from the fact that I fell in love with the language quite early on in my life,

[00:13:31] for reasons I don't understand, to be honest, was that Harry Potter was still being written back then.

[00:13:40] And that meant that the next book I read, the fourth, came out in English first -

[00:13:48] - that's the fifth one, sorry -

[00:13:49] the fifth one came out in English first and I can't wait a Drequarter of a year now ...

[00:13:54] That was before it became such a worldwide hit that it - the last book was published worldwide at the same time and all these things...

[00:14:02] So I couldn't wait for that and there was no choice and that was one of the bigger books and exactly the same as you just described.

[00:14:10] Pia: I felt the exact same way there.

[00:14:12] That was also a reason why I liked reading the original version and eagerly awaited it, because I just didn't want to wait. [smiles]

[00:14:19] I think that's still the case today, because of course, unless you're a mega-bestseller, many media only come to the German-speaking world later, logically enough,

[00:14:30] because translators - Pia: Need time. - need time and it's also creative-literary demanding work, which then brings its own quality with it.

[00:14:42] But nevertheless, it's a great challenge to translate foreign-language texts and English in particular is - I think you can all understand this - a huge cultural area that is also so influential for us in Europe and also in Austria.

[00:15:02] Pia: And meanwhile also on the internet. The language of the internet is simply English, so at least [incomprehensible] ...

[00:15:07] in Europe, let's put it that way. Christina: From our Western point of view, it's, it's English.

[00:15:12] That's right, that was totally the advantage, because the borders are then of course, so there are no borders for the English-speaking Internet and I think that's why a lot of young people today simply know English,

[00:15:29] because otherwise they wouldn't have access to many areas of the internet. Although, of course, there are now all these translation tools and so on, but it's still somehow different.

[00:15:44] Pia: It's still something else. But you mentioned something interesting anyway, because börsenblatt.net just published an article last year,

[00:15:53] which says that English-language books are becoming increasingly popular in Germany, especially among younger generations.

[00:16:01] And it's mainly because the English skills of young people are getting better and better, especially because of these online platforms.

[00:16:08] TikTok, Booktok, we've talked about them before anyway. And these platforms are also promoting the trend.

[00:16:15] And that's why the demand for original English editions has always increased in recent years and it also leads, for example, to them ending up on the bestseller lists, [Christina, amazed: Ah!] so the English version also ends up on the German-language bestseller lists,

[00:16:29] For example Prince Harry, the biography or the books by Michelle Obama.

[00:16:33] Christina: Ah, that's interesting. So I also think that, well, now you can totally tell that the book trade is reacting to the market and that it - so the selection of English-language literature has exploded, in our example in Innsbruck.

[00:16:49] I remember, I know that you felt the same way, because we browse through the bookstores together from time to time,

[00:16:58] we always know exactly which corner the English-language books are in and before it was really the corners. And that's different now.

[00:17:04] Pia: It was at the very back of the bookstore where we used to go and it was just one shelf. [laughs]

[00:17:11] And I have to confess to my shame that for a very long time or simply out of a desire, also out of the need to read things relatively quickly, that with a large online mail order company -

[00:17:27] buuuuh - [Pia, laughing]: who shall remain nameless. - Christina: [laughs] Which should remain nameless because it doesn't need advertising - I ordered the books. But because there were simply no, well, I've never been able to spontaneously go in somewhere good and there was exactly the book I was in the mood for,

[00:17:41] If I wanted it quickly, then I just ordered it there because of the short delivery times.

[00:17:47] I felt the same way, in bookstores you only got the classics.

[00:17:51] Which is also interesting, but you don't always want to read that. [laughs]

[00:17:55] Christina: Yes, you just want to "be in the market", so to speak, and it's also something we definitely notice in the library that the demand is increasing or that people are taking it for granted that they're going to the English-language media.

[00:18:11] It's now, we've been talking about English, of course, because our two "chosen" acquired second language is simply English.

[00:18:21] There are many other second languages, Veronika, for example, who will be our guest next week, has French, so Billingual grew up with French as a second language.

[00:18:35] And of course we also have French books, for example, or Italian books, of course, so I would be missing something because we wouldn't have Italian.

[00:18:49] Pia: Or Spanish or Russian.

[00:18:51] Yes, we have all, we also have Turkish and Arabic books.

[00:18:57] But with some languages it's difficult to obtain them, so it's more difficult to actually get books in the language, whether it's booksellers or librarians or booksellers or librarians.

[00:19:13] And other languages are easy, you don't need so many, because English is the language.

[00:19:21] And then maybe it's interesting pub quiz info at the end.

[00:19:28] About 373 million people in the world speak English as their first language.

[00:19:33] English, the number increases to 1.5 billion people if you include second language.

[00:19:45] But as a first language, it's the dritt largest language in the world after Spanish, so after Mandarin and Spanish.

[00:19:53] Pia: So that says a lot, doesn't it? Those are massive numbers.

[00:19:57] And we've always gotten the English shows, not the Spanish shows.

[00:20:00] Pia: Yes.

[00:20:01] I think you can see the influence of the USA on our culture.

[00:20:08] Pia: Yes. Extremely.

[00:20:10] Christina: Pia, in conclusion, are there any disadvantages to language learning?

[00:20:18] Pia: You wrote down the same disadvantage, I know that [laughs], if you've already talked about it drü.

[00:20:23] Sometimes I can't think of words in my own language because then I think,

[00:20:27] "Ah, this English word is just perfect, I'd like to say that."

[00:20:30] And maybe there's not quite an equivalent in German.

[00:20:32] Or at the moment, German is just completely gone from my brain.

[00:20:35] I don't know what's happening, but it can happen quickly. [laughs]

[00:20:39] Christina: I have that too. And what bothers me the most is when I have some trains of thought or concepts,

[00:20:45] that I have, I also have that from my time at university.

[00:20:48] Everything I learned in English, I can discuss with you in English.

[00:20:53] But if I had to translate it into German, I completely lack the technical vocabulary and stories like that. [smiles]

[00:20:57] That's an absolute luxury problem, of course.

[00:21:00] Pia: [laughing] I can't think of many other negative things now, I have to say.

[00:21:03] Christina: [laughing] No, of course there aren't any.

[00:21:05] Language learning is, we think, wonderful.

[00:21:09] It's a great hobby, it trains the brain.

[00:21:12] And you can join in at any time.

[00:21:15] Personally, I've now rediscovered the idea of taking French a little further.

[00:21:19] I always leave it lying around, then I pick it up again.

[00:21:22] Have you just touched on any language that appeals to you from time to time?

[00:21:27] Apart from English, I have to say French and Italian, I went to school,

[00:21:31] but I neglected that extremely.

[00:21:33] So I think I would have to start from the beginning. [laughs]

[00:21:36] Christina: Exactly, but if you want to adopt English or another language as a second language,

[00:21:44] so to speak, then you can do that.

[00:21:46] There are tons of resources, even free resources that you can find online.

[00:21:51] Once you get into the subject, you'll know pretty quickly.

[00:21:56] If you need help, just drop by the library.

[00:22:00] We'll give you tips and tricks on how to do which courses well,

[00:22:04] which language courses to take, which books to start with,

[00:22:08] at which level you can read which books.

[00:22:11] We know that, we can help you with that.

[00:22:14] Pia, do you say goodbye to the podcast and ask, do you have any questions?

[00:22:20] Pia: [Laughs] Yeah, thanks for listening.

[00:22:22] It was a pleasure as always.

[00:22:24] We're looking forward to the next episode and to Veronika.

[00:22:28] If you want to tell us your opinion on languages and your own language story,

[00:22:36] then you are welcome to do so at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at

[00:22:42] or on Instagram and Facebook.

[00:22:44] Thanks for listening and see you next time. Bye.

[00:22:48] Bye.

[00:22:49] Or - ah - goodbye. [Laughs]

[00:22:51] [Outro music]

[00:23:16] [Pia speaks] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:23:20] and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck. [Pia speaks]

[00:00:00] Yes, hello and welcome back to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:20] My name is Christina and today it's not Pia who's saying hello, but my dear colleague, Jaqueline

[00:00:26] Jaqueline, hello. Hi Jaqueline, nice to have you with us. Thank you for the invitation. We are very happy

[00:00:32] very much and the two of us are asking ourselves today, why do we actually like tropes but not

[00:00:39] just any tropes, but very particular or specific - which trope ... Which trope are we talking about?

[00:00:45] we, the listeners already know anyway - Enemies-to-Lovers. - Yes, so it's going to be a very exciting episode.

[00:00:52] And before we jump in, Jaqueline, I'd just like to take a moment for our listeners,

[00:01:00] who might be wondering, "trope", what is a "trope" now, what "enemies", what "lovers",

[00:01:04] explain what a trope is in general. The term originally comes from the

[00:01:12] rhetoric. There it is used as an umbrella term for certain classes of rhetorical figures

[00:01:18] used as an umbrella term. A rhetorical figure, for example, is known as a metaphor. In the

[00:01:24] modern literary studies, but also in literary criticism, as well as and above all

[00:01:31] in the English-speaking world, but also in other linguistic and cultural contexts

[00:01:36] a trope refers to recurring motifs, themes, plot patterns, character types or stylistic devices,

[00:01:44] which then occur in many literary works and have a certain meaning or

[00:01:50] association. A few common examples of tropes in literature include the

[00:01:57] Chosen One in English. This is a character who is chosen for a special task

[00:02:04] or destiny. Harry Potter would be one of these, for example. The old "white" mentor,

[00:02:10] the old WISE mentor - important distinction. I'm so used to this "old white men."

[00:02:17] But it's also true, so they're mostly white too. He, except Yoda, he's green. That would be

[00:02:26] a, right, an experienced, wise character or figure who offers the hero advice and support

[00:02:34] to the hero. We've already mentioned Yoda, Albus Dumbledore would also be one. The classic. Or

[00:02:42] an antagonist, for example Lord Voldemort. Exactly, it's not just limited to literature,

[00:02:47] it's also in movies, TV series, plays and many other narrative forms. What are tropes for?

[00:02:53] They're there to structure stories, also to facilitate the narrative flow. They use

[00:03:00] so they always use familiar patterns and expectations. That's why they're also quite popular in the

[00:03:04] children's and young adult literature. There is now also, perhaps a marketing term, that says

[00:03:12] you something Jacqueline, the new adult, where I think it's a bit blurred

[00:03:20] from young adult literature to adult literature and what an in-between stage it is or where

[00:03:26] it merges elements of young adult literature with adult literature. So New Adult

[00:03:33] is characterized by the fact that there are a lot of tropes. Do you find that too? Yes, well, I mainly read

[00:03:42] "Young Adult" myself, so that's my favorite genre to read because it's not quite this

[00:03:49] adult and mostly dry somehow for me. And I think that the, well, that's mainly

[00:03:56] especially a lot of tropes and that's also how the community communicates. So on

[00:04:02] Instagram you only read tropes. When someone writes or promotes or rates a book or a review,

[00:04:08] there are always tropes in the comment and it's always discussed. Yes, that is now

[00:04:14] more "Slow Burn", is it "Chosen Family" or whatever the trope is. So that comes

[00:04:19] occurs very frequently and has actually become part of the communication about the books

[00:04:25] and I don't know whether that's why it's become so topical and so popular

[00:04:30] mainly through social media. But I would definitely agree with you,

[00:04:34] that it's very widespread in "young adult". My theory is that it comes from the

[00:04:40] fanfiction culture, that, we've talked about fanfiction before and whoever

[00:04:49] interested in it in more detail can listen to the episode again. But that's

[00:04:58] so with the advent of fanfiction and that was before social media, I would guess,

[00:05:07] established itself before social media and then it spilled over into social media, right?

[00:05:14] Yes, definitely, I hadn't even thought about it, right, with the fanfictions, if you look at the

[00:05:20] google them or type them in or search on Archive of Our Own or something like that, then the keywords are always,

[00:05:26] which they are actually tropes, right, and I hadn't even thought of that.

[00:05:29] Yeah, I thought about Archive too, if you just go to the Archive of Our Own page

[00:05:34] is a fanfiction site, now the biggest fanfiction site on the internet, in English,

[00:05:41] in any case, I would even say at all and then you immediately have all the tags and the

[00:05:47] are just - they're always tropes and then you can sort of like a restaurant order

[00:05:53] put it together like this, what would I like now? I would like the "Enemies-to-Lovers" with a

[00:05:59] "Chosen One" as the protagonist, who gets together with this one and that one and so on and then

[00:06:05] you can read exactly, if that's what you want to read at that moment.

[00:06:11] Exactly, yes. And it's the same on social media, for example, I didn't know that.

[00:06:15] So I'm quite active on Booktok and there's always, well, I think you can almost

[00:06:22] you almost never come across a book review that doesn't speak in tropes and also, that always means,

[00:06:29] yes, I liked that so much, "Enemies-to-Lovers" and "Slowburn", that's really well done

[00:06:34] and excellent and that actually categorizes all the books. So then there are whole

[00:06:40] Bookstagram pages that specialize in "romance novels", for example, and then really

[00:06:45] also rate these tropes for books. So I know that mainly from social media

[00:06:50] and then everyone asks, okay, but does it also have this or that trope or something?

[00:06:55] So for many people, it's a prerequisite to know the tropes before they even read a

[00:07:00] start reading a book then. So you would say that young readers or those,

[00:07:05] who then also use Booktok and so on, so they're on these platforms,

[00:07:09] that they wouldn't read a book if it didn't fit their trope? So it's that,

[00:07:18] does it have to be that accurate? Well, I think so, I've noticed that myself. I am for example

[00:07:23] For example, I'm not a big fan of "enemies-to-lovers", spoiler. I think it's very often done very badly

[00:07:30] that I'm just not aware of the hate, why they're "enemies" now and I just

[00:07:35] think, guys, just talk it out, then everyone in 10 miles will realize that you should be "Lovers".

[00:07:39] That's often the case with me, for example, that I think to myself, I would avoid it now if someone says,

[00:07:45] oh, "Enemies-to-Lovers", and really, really great, I'm often skeptical about the book. So I

[00:07:50] think that a lot of people use the tropes for reader decisions and if the trope is,

[00:07:55] that they don't like, that has an effect on their reading behavior, quite clearly, yes.

[00:07:59] That's probably also a new one that's come out of internet culture

[00:08:09] way of reading. Because I believe that a lot of people, at least that's my

[00:08:18] experience that I often read books, I mean, sure, if you have an author that you want to read mag,

[00:08:24] Stephen King is the example for me, then you just read what's published there, I get exactly that -

[00:08:28] That's reliable. And I can imagine that it's similar there. But apart from

[00:08:33] genre literature, I often watch a movie and then I ask myself

[00:08:39] oh, it's based on a book or I ask, or then I'm suddenly in 20th century Paris

[00:08:45] or suddenly I'm interested in the authors of the beat generation and then I want to

[00:08:49] want to know that. So these are like "bubbles of interest" where I then read the literature there drin. And basically

[00:08:59] basically it's just a different kind of categorization. Before we now ... So to the

[00:09:05] tropes per se, there's still a lot to ask, uh to say, but what is "Enemies-

[00:09:12] to-Lovers" anyway? "Enemies-to-Lovers" describes, I'll just call it that now

[00:09:17] the process when two people get to know each other or already know each other and simply don't like each other.

[00:09:24] So they don't like each other, they're often, there's often in a high school context,

[00:09:28] that they are "enemies" because they both have good grades and both want to be the best,

[00:09:32] but that's just this "enemies" in the competition with each other, they like each other

[00:09:37] absolutely not and they hate each other and they can't be in the same room. And in the course of the book

[00:09:41] it then swings around into this "Lovers" perspective or, yes, storyline, that they're then on

[00:09:49] once they switch from this hatred to "Yes, actually I love you and that's why I hate you

[00:09:53] I hate you so much". And then all of a sudden they are a couple or at least have something in common

[00:09:58] or I don't know, what is the complete change from the initial behavior and

[00:10:04] often there's also this hatred that both of them somehow resist and

[00:10:09] then somehow a tension arises and I think that's what a lot of people like,

[00:10:13] this tension that arises, exactly, but it just changes in the novel or in the book

[00:10:19] then everything changes completely. So this is then applied accordingly to love stories. So I

[00:10:28] know it from many novels, but it's also very popular in fantasy. And also in the

[00:10:33] fan fiction area. Yeah, okay, I see, so an example of the enemies-to-lovers as a

[00:10:43] trope, would be the "Twisted" series by Ana Huang, we have that now, the Jacqueline looks at me

[00:10:50] looking at me questioningly, I just cataloged it, which means we just ... we have it

[00:10:54] in English there, we also have it in German now, the rest will follow, in the library.

[00:10:59] And what we've actually also done, because tropes in that sense, we also use

[00:11:04] the English-language term, when we used to talk about, I think,

[00:11:09] we would have talked about genre as librarians, we wouldn't have talked about it at all

[00:11:14] exactly subdivided. But of course that's useful for us as librarians, we have

[00:11:21] now also created the keyword because it's a noticeable shift, simply.

[00:11:31] Yes, very practical for us then. And you realize it, people are asking, so of course it's

[00:11:37] a certain generation first, who have simply grown up in the reading culture, who know that,

[00:11:45] they inherently know what tropes are. Yes, and that's why we did it, because if the

[00:11:51] reading habits have simply changed somewhere and then when people ask me at the

[00:11:56] information ask me, "Enemies-to-Lovers" then of course it's quite useful if you can just

[00:12:00] the keyword, then you know. Just like Archive of our Own. Yes, do you have

[00:12:09] one, you said you don't magst it like that, the trope? For me, it's just often bad

[00:12:17] that a lot of people, it seems to me that a lot of authors, somehow

[00:12:23] get into this trend and try to create "enemies-to-lovers", but for me

[00:12:29] the hate is often not justified enough to make you think they hate each other and

[00:12:35] suddenly love each other, this wonderment of what this trope actually needs. And

[00:12:40] this hatred is then sometimes just: "He didn't look in my direction once and

[00:12:43] now I hate him." And for me, that's often quite

[00:12:45] unfounded and that's why I often can't do anything with it. But then, so then I read

[00:12:51] I read the books there, either I haven't finished them or I have an example and that's a very

[00:12:56] hyped young adult book series is "The Cruel Prince" by Holly Black and everyone loved that and

[00:13:02] - "oh, Enemies-to-Lovers" - and I read that and I thought to myself, well, I know, I see

[00:13:06] the hate. So I don't understand why they suddenly hate each other now, just because they're just

[00:13:09] are somehow a bit opposed, but that was completely unfounded for me and then

[00:13:15] even further in this tension, it wasn't tension for me, it was just bad for me

[00:13:18] Executed. Do you have one that you particularly like magst? Yes, it's actually my favorite book series.

[00:13:26] That's why it's so contradictory that I don't like the trope mag, but my favorite book series, "Das Reich

[00:13:33] of the Seven Courts" or "A Court of Thorns and Roses" by Sarah J. Maas. Absolute favorite book series and

[00:13:38] there's even the "enemies-to-lovers" process drin twice in these novels and that's

[00:13:44] just really so well done, so they really want to kill each other at the beginning actually

[00:13:49] and it's really based on things and it just makes sense and that's where I got it,

[00:13:54] I think it's great, but the book is much more than that trope for me and I think,

[00:13:59] it's also a bit that, for me, there has to be a plot around it to make this

[00:14:05] "Enemies-to-Lovers" so that it's really a book that I want to read and not just focus on

[00:14:09] this enmity happened, sort of. Yeah, with pure romance novels like that or is it

[00:14:19] often navel-gazing and I can also imagine that it gets boring at some point.

[00:14:23] Exactly, yes. When it goes on like this for a whole novel, I'm like: here it comes. Can you see that?

[00:14:28] Yeah, exactly. When do they come together, every sitcome of all time.

[00:14:34] Everybody knows, but they don't know. Yeah, that's really an age-old trope actually,

[00:14:39] It's already on TV and stuff. I also think what you said,

[00:14:43] that the books that you don't like, you have the feeling that this leads the authors and

[00:14:47] female authors, to be honest, there are probably more female authors and the few male authors,

[00:14:53] do it somehow so that it's just drin. Why does it have to be drin? Well, so that people read it.

[00:15:06] Well, first of all, you need a publisher to bring it out and then promote it accordingly

[00:15:11] advertises it accordingly. And if it's in right now, for example the trope "Enemies-to-Lovers"

[00:15:15] is on the book market right now, the new hot "coffee", when it's in, then you have

[00:15:24] all of a sudden, if one thing works, then all of a sudden you have all these freeloaders,

[00:15:30] who just try to copy it like it's paint by numbers or something,

[00:15:34] whereas it's actually much more than that. So I think when you write from the "trope",

[00:15:41] I can't imagine that that can work and I think you can tell.

[00:15:46] Exactly, for me the motivation is just wrong. So when you start and you have no

[00:15:52] idea for a book, but you just want to write a "trope" and then I feel the same way,

[00:15:57] okay, they only had the idea of "Enemies-to-Lovers", but there was no story,

[00:16:01] there was no plot, there was no background to this story and then you just realize that.

[00:16:06] Yeah, I mean, it's not a new phenomenon, it started in 2008, the vampire heyday,

[00:16:12] that's when all the vampire novels suddenly came out, so that's always been the case

[00:16:17] but now it's not just ... Because I think vampire is another "trope" now,

[00:16:22] so you can build that up much further and make the worlds much wider and "Enemies-to-Lovers" is

[00:16:26] then I think the problem is that it's too narrow, so it's really just this one "trope"

[00:16:32] and you can't build a whole novel on that, or you shouldn't.

[00:16:35] So in any case, it's also an outdruck of today's book market that you also have to look at,

[00:16:41] They're also marketed in this way now, some of them are former stories of

[00:16:46] Wattpad are rewritten a little or novels are simply written with the

[00:16:55] ulterior motive, that will sell well on the market. But like you, what you said,

[00:17:02] with the "Enemies-to-Lovers" or "Tropes" is very, is so narrow and I feel that way and

dru[00:17:09] I often have the impression that in bubbles, as Booktok can be, algorithms can be

[00:17:17] that you often stay in a reading habit bubble, because if you only focus on

[00:17:26] these super small details of a book, because you say, that's it,

[00:17:34] what I liked last time, so I have to like it the next ten times,

[00:17:38] you take such a narrow view of your own reading world. Is that also your onedruck? Definitely.

[00:17:45] But I notice it in myself, too, when you realize, okay, I don't know ... "Chosen Families"

[00:17:51] I think it's really great, I think it's really nice, when that happens, I always support it, I think

[00:17:55] always well done and then when the book says, yes, when someone says something about a book,

[00:18:00] that this book has this "trope", then I'm much more willing to read it,

[00:18:05] then I'm okay, I liked it and I think that a lot of people are then more obsessive about it

[00:18:11] and then really only have their two, drei "tropes" and they always want to read them and then

[00:18:15] then devour everything in this "trope", in this bubble, as you said, somehow,

[00:18:21] which many books then suffer from, because at some point it just gets boring. And it's also like that

[00:18:27] a culture of convenience, I think, a feeding of material, I don't want to say literature,

[00:18:35] because somehow, that's what makes sense with fan fiction, because the pool is so big and because

[00:18:41] your time is so limited and because you mostly read it because you want something special, because something

[00:18:45] something in particular has bothered you about a series or a book or whatever, then you pick it up and

[00:18:51] then it makes sense. In literature, I often have the feeling that of course the book market needs

[00:18:58] divisions, but if ... and as a reader it's good to know what you mag, but the more compartmentalized

[00:19:06] the divisions, for example, it used to be, so you said, okay, there are these, there are

[00:19:12] broad genre of suspense literature, you know, you studied literature and then there are

[00:19:18] the smaller genres, that would be crime fiction and thrillers, for example, and I'm personally

[00:19:26] very attached to this genre and that's why, you know, and the smaller, the next smaller

[00:19:34] unit is then somehow Dark Academia and that's again, then I tried,

[00:19:39] read a few Dark Academia books and then I realized, actually,

[00:19:43] none of them grabbed me as much as the original book, "The Secret History", because the

[00:19:51] never really was genre. That was just what it was and it was done and if I want that again,

[00:19:58] then I just have to read it again and have other books that aren't Dark Academia at all

[00:20:03] but then unexpectedly create a completely similar vibe in me and then I thought to myself, oh, that's it,

[00:20:09] what I wanted from these books, but if I had just been looking all this time, I want

[00:20:14] read Dark Academia now, I would never have thought of that next. So I definitely think

[00:20:19] case, that it's a big problem that people focus too much on these tropes and

[00:20:23] generally on social media, people don't even read the book, the back of the book,

[00:20:29] What's that called? In English they say blurb. Yes, the blurbs or something. Yes, the blurbs,

[00:20:36] the problem is people, they don't read the blurbs anymore or something, they concentrate on

[00:20:42] the recommendations of people online or on the trupes, that they only hear, this and that title

[00:20:47] has this and that trope and then they read it and then they say, I didn't like that at all,

[00:20:51] because this and that, which is just badly done or something, because they don't even look for themselves anymore

[00:20:55] look, do I like it, am I interested in the story, I notice that very often with people

[00:21:00] online and I also think that sometimes you have to be a little bit without prejudice in

[00:21:06] a book without any preconceptions, because then it might surprise you and that's a trope for me

[00:21:11] often take away or bother me or why I don't like tropes mag, is because they're just

[00:21:17] anticipate so much, because if I know from the beginning, okay, the "Enemies" are going to be

[00:21:22] become "lovers", then you lose all the tension, so that's often what bothers me

[00:21:27] bothers me or in "Arranged Marriages" or something like that, it always ends the same way or something like that and that

[00:21:33] are often when I think that takes a lot away from my reading experience, because

[00:21:38] I can't imagine anything anymore, so there's no suspense, because I already know exactly,

[00:21:42] what happens through the tropes, so that was sometimes good, but often bad. You have the

[00:21:47] spoiler already in the marketing, as it often is with movie trailers, as long as people tune in

[00:21:53] on, but it's just attention economy, it's just difficult now, difficult now

[00:21:59] to get people to - Definitely. - To end on a positive note,

[00:22:06] because I think we've discussed a lot of facets of it now, which is something that needs to be said,

[00:22:13] and I notice that with the whole Booktok trend, people are reading a lot, they're consuming a lot

[00:22:20] a lot of books and are basically doing a refresh for the entire book market, you notice that

[00:22:29] simply and that's cool. I think the Booktok or Bookstagram community,

[00:22:34] depending on which platform it is, it's not really tight, so you just have to see for yourself,

[00:22:40] what is my bubble and where do I move, but you find, so if you spend half an hour

[00:22:45] sit down, you'll find like hundreds of thousands of different bookstagrammers and the other one,

[00:22:51] all offer different contexts and that's just so diverse, I think in part,

[00:22:56] and they now have like drei, four that I follow and they also read very broadly,

[00:23:01] which is also me, I actually read everything except thrillers and horror, I always get scared,

[00:23:07] but otherwise I read everything and if they read everything, that's, that's kind of a broad spectrum

[00:23:13] and I really like being in the community, I think there's a lot here and as you say,

[00:23:18] it just brings so many young people back to reading who otherwise have no contact with it

[00:23:23] and also, this is a bit selfish, but I also think it's great that the books are now

[00:23:28] prettier again because they're now being presented online, they're worth more and how,

[00:23:32] okay how do you market a book, how do you design the book and I think the community is actually great,

[00:23:39] but maybe I'm in my, I don't think so, in my bubble.

[00:23:46] I'm sure it's great too, so I think it is and it's inspiring

[00:23:50] Yeah, the people. It's also nice when you're with the same people that, the same people

[00:23:57] with whom you share hobbies, can also be in contact, inspire each other and that's

[00:24:02] actually what social media was once intended for, so it's actually really nice.

[00:24:06] So with the "Word for Sunday" I'd say we'll end the episode for today.

[00:24:10] Thank you very much for being here today.

[00:24:12] Yes, thank you too, it was very nice.

[00:24:14] Yes, I thought so too, very entertaining. There are still many, many tropes,

[00:24:18] so maybe we can do it again in the future if you like. - Yes, with pleasure. -

[00:24:22] Then, we'll say goodbye to you, but not without the question: What's your favorite book

[00:24:29] in the "Enemies-to-Lovers" trope?

[00:24:32] Why don't you write to us at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at

[00:24:38] or on Instagram under the handle "stadtbibliothek.innsbruck" or on Facebook,

[00:24:46] although I don't even dare mention the Tropes episode.

[00:24:51] But you can write to us on Facebook, really old school.

[00:24:54] Yeah, thanks for listening and we hope you have a great read.

[00:24:58] Bye.

[00:24:59] [Music]

[00:25:23] The foreword is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen,

[00:25:28] the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

Christina: Yes, hello and welcome back to S'Vorwort, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library. My name is Christina - and I am Pia - and we would like to welcome you to this episode. Today we're starting the episode a little differently. I have to explain something, namely that you can get involved in everyday library life via the #gemeinsambesser on Instagram, for example under the handle "citylibrary.innsbruck". A little bit of "libraries", so to speak, so that we can shape the city library of your dreams together with you. We received a topic request at the beginning of the year. And that's exactly what today's episode is about. Namely: The topic was "fascinating or funny stories about the creation of books". Because before the actual book comes onto the market and then ends up on our shelves or on your shelves at home, there is often a years-long story behind it. And this can sometimes be bizarre, sometimes funny and sometimes perhaps just a little surprising. And in this episode, we would like to share two of these origin stories with each other and with you. And we have prepared, independently of each other, an origin story for a novel or a book or a work. We just don't know exactly and we will tell it to each other. We're very excited to see what each other has come up with. I have to say, I've been looking forward to the episode the whole time. I've written down something really schmaltzy: "Put on your flippers and let's dive into the literary world. (...) Okay, let's dive in. Dive in. Are you about swimming? - Not at all, actually. With you. - What a comparison. Okay, yes, we were really very secretive, weren't we? So, I think you know the gender of the author.

Pia: I made a mistake there. But otherwise you don't really know anything.

Christina: I can't say exactly what author. I don't know anything. And you? Did you find out anything?

Pia: No. Okay. Yes, Christina, let's get started then. Would you start with your story?

Christina: Okay, here we go. Okay, I've brought something. Drum roll. The story of William Burroughs' novel "Naked Lunch". Do you know it? Do you know Burroughs? Ah, okay.

Pia: Then it gets interesting now.

Christina: That's a work of the so-called Beat Generation. Many people found this work unreadable or even obscene. And the story of how it came about is just as chaotic and fascinating as the novel itself. Um, before we get started. The Beat Generation is a literary and artistic movement in post-war America in the 1940s and 1950s. Alongside Burroughs, the most important representatives include Jack Kerouac, who is known for On the Road, which he published in 1957, and Allen Ginsberg with his epic poem Howl. He published that in 1956. These so-called âBeatsâ or âBeatniksâ rejected the conservative values and materialistic culture of post-war America. It was therefore a counter-movement, and they strove for an alternative lifestyle that emphasized freedom, personal authenticity and a departure from social norms. Other motifs in the works, which can also be found in 'Naked Lunch', include spirituality, especially Eastern religions. Buddhism played a major role, Drogen and the expansion of consciousness, which is one of the themes that plays a major role in the novel. Sexual freedom, travel and movement, urban but also rural America and the existential search and search for meaning. In other words, it is about a radical rejection of the mainstream and mainstream culture. Finding new ways for how drÃdo you express yourself and what experiences do you have in life? And our story begins in the 1950s at a time when Burroughs was experiencing a personal and creative crisis. In fact, after he had already become known as a writer and Droauthor, he decided to move to Tangier, Morocco. Tangier is known for its liberal Dropolitics and its exotic atmosphere and therefore became a haven for many artists and writers. Burroughs used or knew how to use this for himself and immersed himself deeply in the Droscene and then began working on his most ambitious work to date, namely 'Naked Lunch'. He was under the constant influence of heroin while he was writing the book.

Pia: Okay.

Christina: His addiction and psychedelic experiences had a significant influence on the writing process. The novel was not meant to be linear, but to reflect the fragmented, fragmentary thoughts and visions of an Droaddict. And the novel succeeded in this very well. Burroughs experimented with the so-called cut-up method, in which he cut up texts and reassembled them. This technique, which he developed together with the artist Brion Geysen, gave 'Naked Lunch' this very unique and somewhat kaleidoscopic style. It's a book like a kaleidoscope. But it wasn't easy for him to work in that state. He was constantly on the run from the police in Tangier, and the reason was because he was always involved in Drocrimes. That's why he often had to hide in some seedy hotel room. And that's where he wrote in feverish, drointoxicated sessions. And you can tell that from the tone of the novel. It is very paranoid and often surreal. You look in vain for a plot. A decisive turning point in the story was when he moved to the "Beat Hotel" in Paris. This is a so-called âBeat Hotelâ, because this is where the greats of the beat generation met. So he met Allen Ginsberg there and Gregory Corso, who we haven't mentioned yet. And it was in this creative community that Burroughs found the support and inspiration he needed to complete his work. Ginsberg was the one who helped him to structure the very chaotic manuscript and prepare it for publication. It was finally published in 1959. We're talking post-war America. Nuclear family. Mom, dad, child, white picket fence. Golden retriever.

Pia: The cliché par excellence.

Christina: In the USA and the UK, the book was censored because of its explicit content and depiction of Drogene consumption. But despite, or perhaps because of, this whole scandal, ââNaked Lunchââ became a cult classic. When it says cult, you know it's somehow like that, something to do with Drogen and pornography and stuff. Like âThe Bloody Path of God 1 and 2â. Such a bad movie. It became a symbol for the non-conformist attitude of the beat generation and their radical rejection of social norms. For Burroughs himself, the book was like a kind of exorcism. It allowed him to wrestle a little with his demons. That's how he saw it, but he was also able to deal with the experiences of addiction and paranoia that he experienced - he ultimately had a very serious addiction, we don't want to romanticize that here - in a certain way. The novel also reflects how torn the author's psyche is and draws the reader - and this is fascinating - into a world in which the boundaries between reality and hallucination become blurred. Today, 'Naked Lunch' is considered a masterpiece of modern literature.

Pia: It's often the case that things that are forbidden become part of literature and that's what makes it so exciting when it's forbidden. I'm thinking of 'Lady Chatterley's Lover', where the sex scenes were so unusual for the time and so forbidden and frowned upon. And then it became a bestseller.

Christina: So perhaps it was also a collective expression of what was not allowed to be said at the time.

Pia: Then you somehow get around this rule.

Christina: Yes, and that's interesting about literary history, that you can see what they're rebelling against.

Pia: Boundaries.

Christina: Exactly, and which boundaries are being crossed? And are they boundaries that we still share in 2024? Or because values are also shifting and changing and the social discourse is becoming different and so on? Yes, and that's why "Naked Lunch" is considered an ancestor or has contributed greatly to the development of postmodern literature. Especially this cut-up technique, but also the way in which he looked so unsparingly at human existence. And accordingly, despite its incredibly rocky history, 'Naked Lunch' became an indispensable part of literary history. I've been trying to read it, I think I'm on page 30 so far. I've already taken a 10-year break now.

Pia: What's it about? In terms of the story.

Christina: How good of you to ask.

Pia: I can't really imagine what drunter with kaleidoscope that you understand from the system, but I think okay, what exactly do I read when I read the book?

Christina: Well, the title doesn't really say anything.

Pia: Exactly.

Christina: The book follows the protagonist named William Lee. And in the end, he is nothing more than a fictional version of Burroughs and this William Lee is the protagonist. Traveling through various dystopian and surrealistic places, a junkie also reads and flees from the police and encounters a variety of bizarre characters and scenarios. So the novel begins in the streets of New York City, then leads into the fictional Interzone. This is a city that is somehow a mixture of Tangier, New York and other cities. The plot is also very episodic, very erratic because of this cut-up technique. Um, that conveys the insightdruck, or that reflects this chaotic and hallucinatory state of the protagonist and reflects that accordingly. The themes are Droaddiction, sexual perversion, control and freedom. As I said, there is nothing like a plot in this respect, but rather the themes and, as is so often typical in postmodern literature, the play with the literary form and ultimately with the reading experience, which is turned on its head. So it's not the zero-eight-fifteen genre literature.

Pia: Center, climax, end. Exactly.

Christina: It's also an experience to read and definitely worth reading if you're interested in literary genres. Although, as I said, I haven't actually read it, but I'm planning to, but I think it's very challenging, also in terms of the subject matter. Yes, and that was my story. What did you think of my story?

Pia: I found it interesting. It's certainly something different. Not the typical author's story that you're used to. You always think of J.K. Rowling, who described how she had the idea for Harry Potter on the train or something, it's kind of like, yes, something happens, you live something and then you think to yourself, I'll write something drÃabout it. That's certainly a different approach.

Christina: Yes, so that was also a very intentional artisticdruck. So they were looking for an outdruck, they wanted to.

Pia: Their experiences.

Christina: Exactly, to bring it into the world. By the way, before we move on to your part, I can highly recommend the movie "Kill Your Darlings". I haven't looked up when it's from, but it's a bit older now. It was shortly after Harry Potter was over. Daniel Radcliffe directed the moviedreh, I think. Around the Dreh. And it's about the beat generation. Daniel Radcliffe plays.

Pia: Ginsberg.

Christina: Yes, exactly. And William Burroughs is also in it. And the William Tell apple, to know what I mean by that: just have a look. And it's a very romanticized film. Of course it is. But it is, anyone who likes literary adaptations or literary films mag or films about literature will either already know or learn to love "Kill Your Darlings". Okay, Pia, now I'm really curious. What did you bring with you?

Pia: Well, I don't actually have a story about the creation of just one book, but basically a whole oeuvre, an entire body of work.

Christina: You've done the extra work again.

Pia: From one author and now I would be interested to know because you magst like crime and thrillers and horror.

Christina: Agatha Christie. Jane Austen.

Pia: Jane Austen? Christina: Exactly. No, I'd be interested to know if you know her? Anne Perry.

Christina: Yes, it's the one from the UK. Yes. I like the name.

Pia: What it says. A name. Pia: What? We have them in stock too. Well, I looked it up too. We have it in stock.

Christina: I don't think I've read anything about her yet. Now I'm curious.

Pia: Okay, so Anne Perry is an English writer, was an English writer, born in 1938, died last year in 2023. She is known for her crime series, as I said before, especially her historical crime novels set in Victorian England. - that's why I don't know her. - Not a fan of historical crime novels. She has written over 120 books, over 26 million copies have been sold worldwide, and her books regularly land on the New York Times bestseller list. So very successful, you could say. Most of her books deal with questions of morality, sin, remorse and forgiveness. And that also becomes important. That was actually mine.

Christina: Oh, did she kill someone?

Pia: Christina is already miles ahead of my story.

Christina: Was that the one with the childhood friend?

Pia: Yes, exactly.

Christina: No, that's a very cool story. Guys, you're in for a treat. This is one of my favorite true-crime literary stories ever. Pia, take it away!

Pia: Well, we don't know that yet. So that was all the public knew about her at the time. That all changed in 1994. That's when the movie "Heavenly Creatures" came out, which is what it's called in German, by the way, and is available on Filmfriend, I looked it up. So we have a streaming service, which means that if you are a member of our library, you can stream this movie online on our website. It was directed by Peter Jackson. And the movie is about an intense friendship between two teenage girls in New Zealand in the 1950s. The friendship ends in tragedy when they plan and carry out the murder of the mother of one of them. Now you're thinking okay, what does this have to do with our author? Well, the movie is based on true events. The two teenagers are real and subsequently had to serve a 5-year prison sentence, but nobody knew who they were. In the course of this movie where it came out, the press did some research and then found out that one of the two murderers, Anne Perry, is our author. That's really cool. At the age of 15, she and her best friend beat her friend's mother to death. The reason was allegedly that the friend had had to move away and they didn't want to be separated from each other. Back to the literature: Her focus on remorse and forgiveness in her crime novels makes sense now, of course. She also said herself that she struggled with it afterwards, after this murder. For the press, of course, that was a real feast. And she herself was of course not at all happy about her identity being published. She herself then said 'it seemed so unfair. Everything I had achieved as a decent member of society was beingdrohacked and once again my life was being interpreted by someone else. It had happened in court when I was a minor, not allowed to speak as a minor and heard all these lies. And now there was a movie, but no one had bothered to talk to me. I didn't know about it until the day before it was released. All I could think about was that my life would fall apart." But she continued to write afterwards and she published a lot of books, successfully published them and also gave several interviews about the murder and her literature. And she said in the Guardian, for example, about her literature: "It is crucial for me to continue exploring moral issues. I wanted to explore what people do when they are confronted with experiences and inner conflicts that push them to their limits." So for her, this was somehow her literature, a processing of what happened.

Christina: They were both convicted of this murder, both the childhood friend and the author? - Christina: Exactly. - Do I remember correctly that Anne Perry always denied that she committed the murder?

Pia: Well, she always said herself, in all the interviews I've seen and read, that she absolutely knew that she was guilty and that it served her right that she ended up in prison. And she said she was glad that this prison sentence was imposed on her and that she had to serve it. Mm.

Christina: Yes. Okay. Tough stuff.

Pia: But I found it kind of interesting. It's everywhere, of course, where she died last year. It was all over the headlines. "Crime writer who is actually a murderer

Christina: I remember that. Of course I do. Clickbait. Headline if you ever found one. That's another case of there's the reality. Uh, if you write that in the book, no one will believe it. Yeah, it reads like the plot of a novel

Pia: I didn't know her as an author either and then she passed away last year and that's when I found out who she actually was and this whole story. But I found it interesting because it's really bizarre.

Christina: So that raises a lot of questions, doesn't it, about morality and is someone - it's a murder, so that can't be out of time and at the same time they were minors. And what does that mean for the person when they are an adult? You know, there are still physiological changes in the brain and somehow that is then, do you have to let that rest or do people have a right to know and so on? And then also the way they experience it and how the media deal with it.

Pia: Because that was also the case in this movie. heavenly Creatures' also hinted a bit in the direction that it could have been a lesbian relationship and she always denied that, for example, that that was never the case. So, of course, that's also the question: what do I do with this person when I portray them like this, that's interesting. Um, yes, exactly. And we have crime novels by her in the library. We have a bunch of her eBooks to read digitally, but also two crime novels in print. "Those who seek revenge" and "The traitor's game", so if you're interested, you're welcome to read her crime novels.

Christina: Yes, and now it's up to you to vote on which of the origin stories you liked better. Which was more bizarre, which was more interesting? You can do this on Instagram at stadtbibliothek.innsbruck. Do you know a bizarre origin story of a novel, or are we also open to movies, right? We're even open to games, I would have said now, are there any games you'd like us to talk about in the podcast? Then write to us at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at. And with that, we say goodbye to this episode today. Pia, I really enjoyed it.

Pia: It was interesting, exciting, yes.

Christina: Totally exciting and maybe we can do it again sometime.

Pia: I would be delighted.

Christina: So send us your topics and we'll say goodbye until then. Bye bye.

Person 3: (...) SâVorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library.

[00:00:07] So hello and welcome back to the preface of the Innsbruck City Library podcast.

[00:00:28] I'm Christina and I'm Pia and we're back.

[00:00:33] We are very happy that after the last episode, where our dear colleagues,

[00:00:37] Shelly and Jacky took over for us and talked a bit about traveling and travel guides,

[00:00:43] that today we can ask ourselves the question, why do we actually like STEM literature?

[00:00:49] Let's start with a definition. What exactly is STEM literature now?

[00:00:56] Then we'll go into the history of STEM literature.

[00:01:01] Then we look at the so-called newer STEM literature.

[00:01:05] With mainly female main characters, small spoiler, Ali Haisalwood is also in it.

[00:01:12] Last but not least, we really ask ourselves the question, why do we actually like STEM literature?

[00:01:18] and give you our opinion on this phenomenon and this trend.

[00:01:24] And we start with STEM literature comes from English, which is almost books and texts,

[00:01:30] that are dedicated to and deal with science, technology, engineering and math.

[00:01:39] This literature aims to promote understanding and interest in these subject areas,

[00:01:45] by making complex concepts accessible and exciting.

[00:01:48] STEM in this case stands for Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics,

[00:01:55] i.e. science, technology, engineering and mathematics.

[00:02:00] Of course, it's not just in English.

[00:02:04] There is also a German equivalent, that would be MINT, which you may know,

[00:02:08] That would be mathematics, computer science, natural sciences and technology.

[00:02:12] Of course, it refers to school and university subjects, but also to professions in this field, for example.

[00:02:19] This is also often an area where you want to support children.

[00:04:36] Exactly. And before we get to the STEM literature that everyone is talking about now,

[00:04:44] namely that which is aimed primarily at girls and women,

[00:04:49] we'd like to tell you a bit about the history of STEM literature.

[00:04:53] Because in terms of fiction, this is a somewhat older genre.

[00:05:00] So stem literature specifically is simply novels and stories,

[00:05:06] that deal with the topics we just mentioned.

[00:05:10] This literature has a very long tradition that goes back to the 19th century.

[00:05:17] An early example of what you might call STEM literature today,

[00:05:24] would be Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

[00:05:27] That came out in 1818, and in Frankenstein, science

[00:05:34] and also the consequences of technological progress.

[00:05:41] It's actually a highly topical book for us in terms of subject matter.

[00:05:48] Then of course there are greats like Jules Verne or H. G. Wells,

[00:05:54] who are sometimes the founders of science fiction

[00:05:59] and are considered the founders of science fiction

[00:06:02] and deal intensively with technological and scientific topics.

[00:06:08] In the 20th century, the science fiction genre received even more attention,

[00:06:14] especially through well-known authors such as Isaac Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke,

[00:06:20] who also explored scientific and technological concepts in their stories.

[00:06:26] However, the term STEM literature has only become widespread for works of fiction in recent decades,

[00:06:34] just as you described Pia, parallel to this growing importance of stem formation,

[00:06:42] i.e. the "mint fan" in German usage

[00:06:49] and especially the attention to the aspect,

[00:06:55] that girls and women also want and should be supported in this area.

[00:07:03] Exactly, I think you've summarized that quite well now, the history of the earlier works,

[00:07:07] of this STEM literature. But then in the last few years there has been a whole new trend in this direction.

[00:07:14] That started around 2017. The person who really kicked it off was Ali Hazelwood,

[00:07:21] but we'll get to her later. It was a trilogy that she started back then,

[00:07:26] a trilogy of romance novels. The first part is called "The Love Hypothesis",

[00:07:31] but we'll talk a bit more about that. She then wrote "steministic" literature for the first time.

[00:07:38] Wow, the neologism.

[00:07:40] Steminist or steminism refers to a specific strain of feminism.

[00:07:46] And it conflates STEM and feminism, I assume, right?

[00:07:50] Yes, of course. So that advocates for an increased presence of women in these ministries

[00:07:56] and in terms of fiction, that means fine literature, that means novels,

[00:08:02] that portray and celebrate heroes from this area. Although they are mostly romance novels.

[00:08:07] And a typical example of an author who works in this field is Mrs. Hazelwood.

[00:08:12] She is a US author and has a Ph.D. in neuroscience.

[00:08:16] So it kind of makes sense that she wants to write books about it,

[00:08:20] because of course she comes from that field.

[00:08:22] She herself started with fan fiction about Star Trek and Star Wars

[00:08:26] and then started writing herself, in larger publishing houses,

[00:08:31] and has celebrated an absolute success with this trilogy.

[00:08:35] And until 2023 she was a professor herself, worked as a professor

[00:08:39] and then took a break because she wanted to focus on her career as an author.

[00:08:46] Yes, exactly. And I think you brought a few examples, including her book.

[00:08:51] I have that exactly. We have a total of drei novels with us that we can recommend,

[00:09:00] that are fun to read. So "Ali Hazelwood" I think is so remarkable that she then stopped.

[00:09:06] Working in that field herself.

[00:09:08] Yes, exactly. But it's with "Ali Hazelwood", as you've already said,

[00:09:14] wrote The Love Hypothesis, which came out in 2021.

[00:09:18] If you don't know it yet, the main character is a PhD student in biology

[00:09:25] and she finds herself in a fake relationship with a professor,

[00:09:32] as she pursues her scientific career.

[00:09:36] So so classic is a literature, the character works in the field

[00:09:41] and the potential lover is also from that field.

[00:09:46] I also have another example, that would be "Honey Girl" by Morgan Rogers from 2022.

[00:09:53] The protagonist passed her astronomy degree with top marks

[00:09:58] and can't forget a one-night stand with another woman in Las Vegas.

[00:10:02] An LGBT novel, because it's two women who fall in love with each other.

[00:10:08] One of the few in the genre at the moment, right? Exactly. So it's preferably heterosexual

[00:10:15] relationships that are portrayed there. Another novel for the year 2022 is

[00:10:21] "Lessons in Chemistry" by Bonnie Garmus. Is that how you pronounce it? Let me know at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at

[00:10:37] Bonnie Garmus or Bonnie Garmin. In the novel, the protagonist is a chemist in the 1960s

[00:10:46] years who has to assert herself in a male-dominated scientific world and unexpectedly

[00:10:52] becomes a television chef. And then she shares her scientific expertise with the audience.

[00:11:00] And I've only recently, I know the book is two years old, but I have

[00:11:05] recently seen a trailer for the movie, for the movie of the same name. No, there is a movie.

[00:11:08] I don't know 100% whether it came out in 23 or 24,

[00:11:15] I've seen the trailer. I'll definitely watch it, I think it's so funny and

[00:11:21] just the trailer or the short blurp with the summary of this commentary,

[00:11:27] that of course the woman has to cook and that he's also going to provide this meat. But then

[00:11:31] she kind of breaks the cliché there. That's so cool, I think that's a really good movie.

[00:11:36] It's just so funny. Yeah, it's very good. I think that's what these novels are in general. It's so much

[00:11:43] Summer novel that you can read so quickly on the side. But at the same time somehow so

[00:11:48] refreshingly exemplary character somewhere. I find it totally inspiring, this idea,

[00:11:54] that you as a woman are presented with the things that you may have somehow learned in the

[00:12:04] course of your life that you might not be good at. And even if you know theoretically,

[00:12:08] that this is not true mag, but these things are sometimes so deep.

[00:12:11] Intrinsically in you drinnen, I'm always closer. Exactly. And you can't get out.

[00:12:15] But we have another novel. We brought another novel with us. That would be the one by

[00:12:20] Alice Oseman. It came out in 2016 and it's called Radio Silence, it's a YA novel,

[00:12:29] a young adult novel or even more of a young adult novel. It's about the protagonist

[00:12:33] Frances, who is an achievement-oriented student and has a strong interest in science

[00:12:38] and also in math. She grapples with her identity and her goals.

[00:12:44] And then she discovers a popular podcast and its creator was. I'm assuming,

[00:12:48] that's such a... Point, point, point. Right. We have one or two more recommendations and

[00:12:57] will put them all in the show notes as usual. And when we have the books and a large part

[00:13:03] of them, I know that, so we have a large part of them in the public library. If we put the

[00:13:07] books in the city library, then it's always linked to our online catalog.

[00:13:13] Then you can have a look, see if they're currently available and then simply

[00:13:18] borrow them from us with your library card. So, but last but not least, let's ask ourselves the

[00:13:24] question, why do we actually like STEM literature? Pia and I went into ourselves a little bit

[00:13:30] and thought about what we like about it or what the disadvantages might be.

[00:13:35] Pia, would you like to start? Yes, I'm a bit ambivalent about it. On the one hand, I think it's

[00:13:42] great, as you say, that women can see themselves in these areas, especially,

[00:13:46] when that really isn't the case in real life to some extent, that you just can't yet

[00:13:50] so well represented and then it's great, especially in this literature, that you can see yourself there too

[00:13:55] can see yourself and have role models. At the same time, I'm like, I don't know, that's

[00:14:02] very cliché that it's always about love and marriage and relationships

[00:14:06] and, as we've already mentioned, they're mostly heterosexual

[00:14:11] relationships, which means you're a bit heteronormative along the way. So I'm a bit

[00:14:17] ambivalent about it. This mixing of genders, again, I think I understand that,

[00:14:23] it's very clichéd on the one hand and I can totally understand you there. But I think,

[00:14:30] so this combination of STEM subjects or STEM subjects with popular genres, like romance

[00:14:37] or even thrillers and science fiction, that basically makes these books more accessible and

[00:14:44] probably more attractive to a broad readership. And so in science fiction you already know that

[00:14:49] and it's usually not that clichéd, so I don't want you to misunderstand me

[00:14:56] and that only men read science fiction, but in the traditional gender roles.

[00:15:02] Did you mention Jules Verne and H. G. Well.

[00:15:06] Exactly, those are more the authors that are written by, so the heroes, those are male authors,

[00:15:12] but those are also the big exception, there was Mary Shelley, but she's so in the stereotype,

[00:15:18] that's what more men read and that's just the subject matter,

[00:15:23] often topics that don't deal with women or being a woman or the role of women in society

[00:15:30] but with the role of men in society. Or where the protagonists

[00:15:38] are always men and so on. And I believe that this genre of romance in particular and also

[00:15:46] of the female protagonist, so women are also simply picked up where they are interested and that is

[00:15:54] then yes, it also opens up a new perspective if you like reading romance novels anyway.

[00:16:02] And you also have to say that it's mostly women who write them, so basically

[00:16:07] a genre that women write for women, although of course...

[00:16:11] Well, it's always like this, we're always very careful when we talk about books for a

[00:16:18] target group, because when we say that, we do so out of the knowledge,

[00:16:24] that the publisher is marketing it that way. You can't let that dissuade you from selling the books

[00:16:28] from reading the books anyway, whether it's the Love Hypothesis and women can read it just as well as men

[00:16:37] just like any science fiction novel. That's not what we're saying, is it?

[00:16:42] But it is the case that the publishers are of course already marketing it that way. Yes, and also certain and

[00:16:51] that mag there are also socially trained areas of interest that are then or simply areas of interest

[00:17:01] that you might be more likely to pick up. But that's a bit difficult,

[00:17:07] the topic is simply gender and what is, what was there, the chicken or the egg and so on

[00:17:12] that. Exactly, but you have... And it's also what I absolutely positively dislike about the genre

[00:17:18] is that you can take this, because normally when you read novels about

[00:17:22] female scientists or something like that, they tend to be more serious and that's nice,

[00:17:27] when you read trivial literature under quotation marks, where this is also addressed, because I mean

[00:17:32] then you also break out of the cliché and say, okay, I don't want this typical

[00:17:36] romance novel where it's just about bookshops or the café in the Highlands or whatever

[00:17:41] but no, I'm breaking out and trying something different and it's set in Harvard or whatever.

[00:17:47] And then it's just a fresh thing, I remember with Gilmore Girls, that's such an

[00:17:51] intrinsically female show. But Rory is super ambitious and wants to be super successful

[00:18:00] and has been a role model for a generation of schoolgirls and that has already

[00:18:06] inspiring and yes, that's where the book goes, in the case of this new offer,

[00:18:14] just goes, it's also nice that the book market is reacting to the fact that there is a

[00:18:18] diverse literature, in the end you benefit from it somewhere.

[00:18:23] And the readers are enthusiastic, the readers are enthusiastic.

[00:18:28] There are more and more novels, you really have to say. That's always, I think that's really nice,

[00:18:35] just that it also has a role model effect and women see themselves in these professions.

[00:18:40] Maybe it also increases the self-confidence of certain women who read it and think,

[00:18:46] ah, I can't do that and then you read that and then you think to yourself maybe I can do it

[00:18:49] I can do it, maybe it's something for me after all. So it could really also encourage female readers

[00:18:54] encourage readers to go into these areas. So maybe it's not just negative.

[00:18:59] Yeah, with that nice conclusion, we want to ask you, why do you like stem literature?

[00:19:07] What draws you to this literature, last? And what is your favorite book. Let

[00:19:12] let us know at post.stadtbibliothek@innsbruck.gv.at or on Instagram,

[00:19:20] under the handle stadtbibliothek.innsbruck or on Facebook and we say happy reading.

[00:19:28] Until the next episode. Bye!

[00:19:31] S'Vorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library

[00:20:00] and part of Stadt Stimmen, the audio channel of the city of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library.

[00:00:06] Live.

[00:00:08] I think.

[00:00:09] Yeah, I think we're recording. Is it recording? It's glowing. Okay.

[00:00:12] How's that going? What do you say?

[00:00:15] What do you say?

[00:00:16] What do you say?

[00:00:17] Great, now we've looked at everything, but I don't want to start now.

[00:00:20] Wait, wait.

[00:00:21] Okay.

[00:00:22] Hello and welcome to the preface, the podcast of the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:00:43] My name is not Christina and Pia is not sitting next to me.

[00:00:47] I'm Shelly and sitting opposite me is Jacky and we are the Gen-Z, colleagues who are taking over today.

[00:00:54] Exactly, we have a friendly takeover planned today.

[00:00:58] We're happy to be here.

[00:01:00] So let's see what happens.

[00:01:02] Why is it Jackie today?

[00:01:04] Exactly, so today is about traveling.

[00:01:06] So we're talking about travel habits, everything to do with traveling and also travel guides or where to get travel information.

[00:01:15] And that's my first question.

[00:01:18] Shelly, have you been on vacation this year?

[00:01:21] Yes, I've actually been on vacation twice this year.

[00:01:25] Once I flew and once I took the train.

[00:01:29] And in February I was in Valencia, which is in Spain.

[00:01:32] I visited a friend of mine there.

[00:01:34] And in, when was that? May, beginning of June, I think end of May, beginning of June.

[00:01:40] So long out again. Busy Schedule.

[00:01:42] Busy schedule.

[00:01:44] I was in Rome, the eternal city.

[00:01:47] So the south draws you in, you can tell. Yes, it was nice and warm

[00:01:51] And then I came home and there was snow on the mountains, that's a bit of a downer, but mei.

[00:01:55] But sometimes you can't expect anything else in Tyrol

[00:01:58] How did you prepare for these trips?

[00:02:01] So how did you find out what you could do in Valencia and Rome?

[00:02:05] Well, the thing was Valencia, I just visited my friend who is doing a semester abroad there.

[00:02:09] And she was my tour guide.

[00:02:12] I only had to take care of the flight and the hotel.

[00:02:16] She designed the program.

[00:02:18] And we were very well prepared in Rome.

[00:02:22] We booked everything in advance so that we didn't have to queue.

[00:02:27] Which can easily happen in Rome.

[00:02:30] And I actually prepared myself with travel guides.

[00:02:33] With tour guides?

[00:02:35] At our age, still travel guides?

[00:02:37] Yes, it's hard to believe mag .

[00:02:39] And where do you get these guides?

[00:02:43] I get them from the Innsbruck City Library.

[00:02:45] We have a huge travel section there, you should know.

[00:02:48] Yes, you always notice that in summer.

[00:02:51] So summer hardly ever comes.

[00:02:52] All the guidebook shelves are empty because everyone still rents guidebooks from us.

[00:02:57] Yes, exactly. So you notice that the shelves are empty.

[00:03:00] And the gathering is very relaxed.

[00:03:03] And literacy, especially in Italy and Croatia, I would have said, is very ... sober right now.

[00:03:10] But would you have bought the guidebooks before you started working in the library?

[00:03:18] Or was that even on your radar, so that there are guidebooks to prepare?

[00:03:23] Well, you know, of course, but it was always something that my parents used.

[00:03:27] So earlier, when there was no internet.

[00:03:30] They were always in New Zealand and bought drei travel guides so that they knew where they had to go, what was available and everything.

[00:03:37] But for me personally, that was never really an option, it was always too expensive,

[00:03:42] that I thought to myself, I'm not going to buy a guidebook for a week's vacation, am I?

[00:03:46] Especially then you have it in two years and then it's always up to date, that was always my thinking.

[00:03:51] Well, and maybe if you bought the guidebook separately,

[00:03:55] maybe you'll go again so that it pays off.

[00:03:57] Right, yes, maybe, yes. Although, no, not really, because you're not getting married twice,

[00:04:01] just because you bought a wedding dress once.

[00:04:04] Cool comparison. Well, since I work in the library, they have the guidebooks and I know that too,

[00:04:10] that in the summer I thought, yes, where am I going?

[00:04:13] And then, of course, I went to the shelves and thought, what appeals to me?

[00:04:16] What is there anyway? What's on display right now?

[00:04:18] So on display, a little background information, on display on the exhibitors between the shelves,

[00:04:24] are mostly the newer things, so they're maybe two years old at most,

[00:04:30] normally, sometimes there is something older, but we make sure that we keep it very up to date.

[00:04:35] Exactly, yes, and that's why I find the travel guides practical, because you don't have to buy them

[00:04:40] and you can have our travel guides for two months or drealmost i months

[00:04:45] and then you can also take them with you. So the basic lead time is four weeks, exactly,

[00:04:49] extend it twice, so then it's 12 weeks.

[00:04:52] Exactly, and then you can take them with you when you travel, of course you have to be careful,

[00:04:56] that you don't lose anything and don't damage the travel guides.

[00:04:58] And maybe don't go swimming with the tour guides, because we've just had a hearing

[00:05:02] of water damage to our media.

[00:05:04] Yes, that's right, please fall back on the air mattress, not on our travel guides.

[00:05:10] Exactly, but in principle it's very practical, but of course that might be an issue for many listeners now

[00:05:16] the question, what alternatives are there to the travel guide?

[00:05:19] So you have everything in one place, all the information at the same time

[00:05:23] and that's really cool, you can take it with you, it's handy

[00:05:27] and you also have a map drin, so it's great for getting around.

[00:05:30] Yes, but how handy is it really?

[00:05:32] Do you always carry drei, four books with you on vacation in your backpack, in your bag?

[00:05:38] Yes, but I study literature, so it's an occupational disease for me.

[00:05:42] So I can't travel without books.

[00:05:45] And now I can't travel without a travel guide because of my work here either, but what alternatives are there, Shelly?

[00:05:50] Where else can you get the information?

[00:05:53] Well, I personally like to look at social media.

[00:05:57] There are always hidden spots and hidden gems on Instagram with the reels or on TikTok.

[00:06:06] But then the question arises, so I was just in Rome.

[00:06:09] Then my travel companion told me how to get past his little food store,

[00:06:15] where you could buy something to eat, that was normal, certainly a queue of one kilometer back into the city.

[00:06:25] And he was like, that's probably some TikTok crap again.

[00:06:30] So how hidden are these gems then?

[00:06:34] Exactly, so of course you have the advantage of being able to see everything.

[00:06:38] So the things are often only described in the guidebook and then you really have to look at them

[00:06:42] or imagine what it's like.

[00:06:44] And on TikTok and Instagram, of course, you have the advantage that there's always the video

[00:06:49] and you know exactly where to go because people often show you how to get there.

[00:06:54] That's often very practical.

[00:06:55] And then you can see exactly what it looks like, what I'm getting myself into, what's really there.

[00:07:00] And the food is then really shown to you, so from that point of view it has many advantages, but as you say,

[00:07:05] it will be just as overcrowded as all the other tourist spots.

[00:07:09] And I think it takes a bit of the charm out of traveling, because when I read that in the travel guide,

[00:07:14] and it's described like this and then I imagine it like this and then I really want to see it.

[00:07:18] But if I have my TikTok open or my Reel, I don't know, then I can see exactly what it looks like.

[00:07:24] Then I don't have to go there anymore, so to speak.

[00:07:26] Yes, exactly, yes.

[00:07:27] Jacky, have you been on vacation this year?

[00:07:29] Exactly, I've already been on vacation this year, I was in London in March

[00:07:34] and it was the first time I really relied on these TikTok and Instagram spots when traveling,

[00:07:41] because I was traveling with two of my best friends and we have a group together on Instagram

[00:07:47] and we were always sending each other where we wanted to go.

[00:07:49] So we just saw these videos and we said, oh, that looks cool, I really want to go there

[00:07:52] to this museum and this restaurant and of course we didn't make it to half of it because we found so much.

[00:07:58] But it's cool to be able to share and to know, okay, where does the other person want to go, what are their interests?

[00:08:04] And then also in London, if we didn't know where we were going, we'd look in the group, we'd watch some video

[00:08:09] and were like, okay, cool, that would be nearby anyway, we can do that now.

[00:08:12] And that was very practical and so now we're in London because it's just such a hip, cool city,

[00:08:18] where there's so much on social media, so much reliance on social media.

[00:08:22] And I'm going to Naples in the summer, for example, and we've borrowed a travel guide in a funny way.

[00:08:30] So it was kind of like this for me, okay, Italy is kind of already, of course there's lots of stuff about Italy online,

[00:08:36] but we didn't get any suggestions for Naples on Instagram and that's why I had to look for it myself,

[00:08:41] because I don't get any suggestions and that's another disadvantage, because you can't influence what you get suggested on social media.

[00:08:46] That's true, you can't influence what's trending and you can't always follow the trends.

[00:08:51] In any case, otherwise we'd all be sitting in Bali right now.

[00:08:54] Yes, that's right.

[00:08:55] It's the same in Tokyo and Japan in general.

[00:08:58] Yes, that's right, yes.

[00:08:59] I was just on ZiB (Zeit im Bild), I just saw that there were more tourists than ever before Corona.

[00:09:04] Really?

[00:09:05] Contribution, yes.

[00:09:06] Boah zach.

[00:09:07] I was also impresseddruckt.

[00:09:08] Especially a friend of mine is also going to Japan.

[00:09:09] And I had so much fun with the other 7 million people who are in Japan now.

[00:09:12] Yeah, that's gonna be interesting, she'll have something to talk about.

[00:09:16] Yes, relaxed, yes.

[00:09:18] Yes, and do you notice a big difference now that you're traveling alone, because we young adults,

[00:09:27] we don't travel with our parents anymore, a difference to before, when we went on vacation with our parents?

[00:09:33] Yes, so you didn't have to worry about anything, that's fine of course.

[00:09:37] And it was also, I think it used to be much more relaxed, you had less Druck that you had to do everything,

[00:09:43] because you didn't always know what was available.

[00:09:46] And I felt that way when we were on vacation early and then we walked through the city

[00:09:50] and when we found a museum, we just went in.

[00:09:52] Or if it wasn't in the guidebook, we didn't find it otherwise.

[00:09:55] And then it was such a surprise and it was just much more relaxed traveling, I think, before.

[00:10:02] It was more of a discovery and not such a ticking off of...

[00:10:04] Exactly, exactly, yes.

[00:10:05] ...points and that you have on your list.

[00:10:07] You said that nicely, yes.

[00:10:08] Thank you.

[00:10:09] Because this discovery, this you don't actually know the place,

[00:10:13] and you just walk through the streets, stroll around and just see what you find,

[00:10:16] You don't really do that anymore.

[00:10:18] So you just have a lot of time in the place.

[00:10:20] But if I know okay, I only have four, five days, then I plan exactly, okay,

[00:10:24] there's the museum and then there's the café on the next street,

[00:10:28] which looked kind of cool and you kind of want to do a lot more on vacation now.

[00:10:32] And I do believe that social media has a lot to do with that.

[00:10:35] Yes, especially if you're also documenting and constantly posting stories and posts about where you are at the moment

[00:10:40] Exactly.

[00:10:41] And then you have to prove how great it is.

[00:10:44] Right, but it's actually totally stupid.

[00:10:47] So stupid, what does stupid mean?

[00:10:48] It kind of takes all the joy out of it, doesn't it?

[00:10:50] It's just like this... (gong rings in the background) the gong.

[00:10:54] Did you hear the gong now?

[00:10:56] It's eleven o'clock and everyone has to gather around, like not,

[00:10:59] because we're sitting in the chamber and recording.

[00:11:01] No, exactly, it was just earlier...

[00:11:05] I don't know if it used to be relaxed,

[00:11:07] just because the parents were there and you didn't have to worry about anything.

[00:11:09] That can also be the case, of course.

[00:11:11] But all the photo spots and everything that's available in the cities,

[00:11:14] You always want exactly the photo that everyone else has.

[00:11:17] That was really wild in London too.

[00:11:19] Big Ben and stuff like that.

[00:11:21] Just like that or London Bridge.

[00:11:23] Big Ben, everyone wanted the same photos.

[00:11:25] With these guards always in front of Buckingham Palace and stuff like that.

[00:11:27] I was also this Change of the Guards.

[00:11:29] And it was so crowded because everyone wanted to see the Guards.

[00:11:33] Which I understand in principle, but only because it's now huge on TikTok and so on...

[00:11:36] Yeah, it's just this mass tourism.

[00:11:38] And that was actually really frightening to see,

[00:11:41] that people are just so focused on this 'ticking off'.

[00:11:45] This "I have to prove that I've traveled well,

[00:11:48] that I have seen everything and that I have experienced a lotâ

[00:11:50] and no longer this "I'll stroll through a city and see what happens".

[00:11:54] That's already... that's pretty tough.

[00:11:57] And that's actually only done by the TikTokers, who then discover that

[00:12:00] and they stroll through the city for you.

[00:12:02] And then you have to follow them, so to speak.

[00:12:04] That's kind of the controversy dran.

[00:12:07] You actually get really brainwashed.

[00:12:09] So you're actually hardly able to travel on your own,

[00:12:12] without getting seven thousand onedrücke from another person,

[00:12:15] where you could go.

[00:12:17] So that's already...

[00:12:19] And you also go there with a certain bias.

[00:12:22] Exactly. And then if there's more going on that day and you don't see exactly that,

[00:12:25] what the person has seen on TikTok, then it's a wasted day.

[00:12:28] Exactly. Then you're a little disappointed.

[00:12:30] And maybe the weather wasn't so nice either, or they had some kind of filter draon.

[00:12:33] And then it was just extra nice or something.

[00:12:35] Yes, that's always a bit disappointing, of course.

[00:12:38] From that point of view, you're better off with the tour guides.

[00:12:41] Exactly. So I think there is a clear disadvantage with the tour guide,

[00:12:45] and that they simply have to be updated every few years.

[00:12:48] And it's difficult to just have the latest versions.

[00:12:53] Or just, financially or so as a private person

[00:12:56] I think it's extremely difficult to always have the latest travel guide for the country you want to go to.

[00:13:00] If you go to Italy every year or something like that,

[00:13:02] then you have to buy a new travel guide every drei, four years or something.

[00:13:06] Well, I think at some point you'll be the tour guide yourself,

[00:13:08] if you go to the same place every year.

[00:13:10] Well, not to the same place.

[00:13:12] Once northern Italy, southern Italy.

[00:13:14] Italy is, by the way, I think our biggest section of the guidebooks.

[00:13:20] So we have the most, I think, from Lake Garda.

[00:13:24] Garda, Garda, Garda.

[00:13:26] That's right, Lake Garda is always a big favorite with everyone.

[00:13:30] Exactly, so there are also a lot of disadvantages on both sides.

[00:13:34] So social media, as well as the travel guides, social media is always up to date,

[00:13:39] but because it's becoming more and more up-to-date, you have to travel with it more and more, so to speak.

[00:13:44] You have more leeway with the travel guides, I'd say.

[00:13:47] Maybe it's not quite as fast-moving.

[00:13:49] Well, yes, that's just it, you have to sit down, you have to take your time, you have to read through it,

[00:13:53] then you have to think about, okay, where is this, how do I get there?

[00:13:55] So that's kind of again, it's not quite that experience, like we said,

[00:13:59] strolling through the city, but more casual, kind of a little bit.

[00:14:02] Because I mean, they're maybe a bit clunky to carry around sometimes

[00:14:05] and a bit heavy and stuff like that, but you kind of put up with that,

[00:14:08] if you take a guidebook with you.

[00:14:10] Above all, you can, there are so many types of travel guides,

[00:14:13] We have a lot of different publishers, some are really thick,

[00:14:18] the others are very thin, City Trips, for example, are very thin,

[00:14:21] then the Dumont things are real gems, some of them.

[00:14:25] You can also prepare yourself for the trip, you can read the big ones and then take them with you

[00:14:30] Just the little ones, the thins.

[00:14:32] But what I still find funny is that there are still maps,

[00:14:35] really in the guidebooks. I think that's cool.

[00:14:37] I think that's so sweet.

[00:14:39] I've never really used a map in my life.

[00:14:41] No, I mean, I think it's totally retro.

[00:14:43] I grew up with Google Maps and you just type it in, but then you get the route with a map like that

[00:14:47] You really have to look at where I am and what street I'm on.

[00:14:50] I can't read maps,

[00:14:52] My mom can do that. My mom is also so proud of herself that she can.

[00:14:57] And that's why she always packs extra maps when we go somewhere.

[00:15:01] Because she says, well, I can do that with the maps and the signs.

[00:15:05] How do I hold the map, that's...

[00:15:09] Yes, Gen-Z problems.

[00:15:11] That's really crazy. So you don't relate to map reading at all anymore.

[00:15:15] So if I don't have Google Maps, then I'm actually completely lost when traveling.

[00:15:20] So I need help from my cell phone, despite the travel guide,

[00:15:24] because otherwise I would get lost.

[00:15:26] That's where the TikToks come in handy, where we're told where to go.

[00:15:30] But that's still, you just have to start right at that point,

[00:15:34] Eh, Eh.

[00:15:36] But it's usually like that when it's the hidden gems,

[00:15:38] It's usually like this when you start at the Trevi Fountain in Rome

in Rome,

[00:15:41] then they show exactly these alleys, you find the Trevi Fountain somehow, then they all run there.

[00:15:45] And then you just have to take these alleys where the TikTokers show it.

[00:15:48] And then you just follow them and you have advantages and disadvantages.

[00:15:53] But there's something about reading books in general,

[00:15:57] that you don't have to experience something yourself,

[00:15:59] but you experience it through another person.

[00:16:01] You just follow them through their journey.

[00:16:04] And if you don't have a lot of time or money right now and you think to yourself,

[00:16:07] "Barcelona would be cool", then you just watch all the TikToks about it.

[00:16:11] Can you still remember when YouTube was still a thing?

[00:16:15] Do you still watch YouTube?

[00:16:16] Yes, a few times yes.

[00:16:17] Yes, I do.

[00:16:18] I have two, dreI still watch yes

[00:16:19] Really, I don't.

[00:16:20] Anyway, you used to have your favorite YouTubers.

[00:16:24] And they used to go on these awesome vacations, like the Maldives and I don't know.

[00:16:28] Dubai, there were suddenly a lot of them.

[00:16:30] Yes, that was a big trend, twelve years ago or so.

[00:16:32] Yes, and she always gave these follow-me-arounds.

[00:16:35] Yeah, they were so cool.

[00:16:37] Those were usually always the longest videos.

[00:16:39] I'm sure they always went on for half an hour, drea quarter of an hour.

[00:16:42] And you really sat in front of them.

[00:16:44] You in your little room, I don't know, in Innsbruck they still do that

[00:16:49] Yeah, and afterwards you thought, boah, that was cool.

[00:16:53] You really experienced it somehow.

[00:16:54] Yeah, that was cool.

[00:16:55] It was almost like a travelogue.

[00:16:57] Yes, it was a bit like going through these streets from their perspective.

[00:17:01] And then you saw where they go to eat, what they do.

[00:17:03] And that was really cool before.

[00:17:06] And then you actually felt really relaxed, somehow.

[00:17:09] It wasn't like a little vacation from the house.

[00:17:11] Yeah, they were really cool too.

[00:17:14] I forgot that they're not there anymore...

[00:17:16] Now there are just the daily vlogs where they show the one day,

[00:17:19] but that's not the same.

[00:17:21] No, it's not so artificial now either.

[00:17:24] They also check off what the others have done.

[00:17:28] But it used to be...

[00:17:30] You still have these, where they take what they're doing with them on vacation.

[00:17:35] But then they're compressed into two, drei minutes for TikTok and reels.

[00:17:39] I can't switch off like that now.

[00:17:42] Here comes the next one.

[00:17:43] It would be really interesting to know if all these travel influencers use travel guides themselves.

[00:17:48] Should we write to them?

[00:17:50] That would be cool to know if they use...

[00:17:53] ...pick out these spots

[00:17:55] ...plan with a travel guide.

[00:17:59] Traveling in a VW bus like that

[00:18:01] I think they just call their influencer friends and ask, what did you do, how did you get there?

[00:18:06] Last year, we're going this year.

[00:18:08] That can also be, my romantic idea is that you actively travel with travel guides.

[00:18:15] Well, I think the travel department is quite a best-seller for us, isn't it?

[00:18:21] Yes, especially in non-fiction, I think so.

[00:18:25] The empty shelves speak for themselves?

[00:18:27] They do, yes.

[00:18:28] And you can see that a lot of young people are always scurrying around between the shelves and looking.

[00:18:33] And there are still a lot of

[00:18:35] people also like to get advice at our information desk.

[00:18:37] Come here: yes, do you have a travel guide to there and there?

[00:18:40] And you also have to make sure that the travel guides are always updated.

[00:18:45] And also many travel guides, so I had one from Naples once, he also marked photo spots and so on.

[00:18:51] Where they just said "Okay, that's cool." Doesn't that speak in favor of it?

[00:18:55] So that's what they're oriented towards...

[00:18:57] Exactly, they go along with it.

[00:18:58] They're already going along.

[00:18:59] They're not stupid.

[00:19:01] So theoretically, the tour guide is perhaps better after all, because he brings everything together, again.

[00:19:06] That's right.

[00:19:07] That's difficult.

[00:19:08] I like mag him the tour guide.

[00:19:12] You just like to have it in your hand, that's a bit of a nostalgic feeling.

[00:19:16] Because it's just a book and we love books, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting there.

[00:19:20] That's true again.

[00:19:21] Traveling is nice, isn't it?

[00:19:24] No, I'm looking forward to the summer too.

[00:19:25] It doesn't matter whether it's with a travel guide, with the internet or whether I'm just tailgating with my travel companion.

[00:19:31] Yes exactly, there are also those who have nothing and just go along for the ride.

[00:19:34] Yes, riding along is always great.

[00:19:36] Now, of course, we'd like to know how you travel.

[00:19:40] So we've actually talked about our traveling habits.

[00:19:44] Have you been on vacation this year or are you still going and where did you go or where are you going?

[00:19:51] And of course we're also interested in how you prepare for these trips.

[00:19:55] And you are welcome to visit us on Instagram at @stadtbibliothek.insbruck.

[00:20:03] At the same time as this podcast episode, there's a poll online where you can vote.

[00:20:10] And you can also vote on how many guidebooks you think we have in the library

[00:20:16] and you can suggest which countries you would like to see more travel guides from.

[00:20:22] Under the hashtag #gemeinsambesser.

[00:20:24] Exactly, and in this context we would also like to say goodbye to Christina...

[00:20:30] Well, what a farewell, we want to say thank you.

[00:20:33] God, please cut it out.

[00:20:35] Everything is drin

[00:20:37] Towards the end, I can't talk anymore.

[00:20:40] Okay, focus.

[00:20:42] In the train, well, what kind of train, how do we talk about train?

[00:20:46] Exactly, at the end we wanted to thank Christina and Pia again for allowing this friendly takeover.

[00:20:54] It was a lot of fun for us.

[00:20:56] And right, I would also like to point out that you are welcome to write suggestions for further podcast episodes at post.stadtbibliothek@insbruck.gv.at.

[00:21:05] And we always look forward to feedback and you can also do that via Instagram or Facebook or via email.

[00:21:14] Then it's just up to us to say thank you for listening.

[00:21:19] We look forward to the next time and happy traveling in the summer.

[00:21:24] [Music]

[00:21:49] SâVorwort is a production of the Innsbruck City Library and part of Stadtstimmen, the audio channel of the City of Innsbruck.

[00:00:00] Caution, listening to this podcast may lead to more visits to the library.

[00:00:07] Hello and welcome to the preface of the Innsbruck City Library podcast.

[00:00:26] I am Pia and I am Christina.

[00:00:28] And my name is Markus.

[00:00:29] Exactly, we have a special guest supporting us today.

[00:00:33] It's about sensitivity readers and we're weighing up the pros and cons here.

[00:00:39] We're trying out a new format today.

[00:00:41] In other words, because the topic is controversial, Christina is taking the pro side of the debate.

[00:00:46] And then Markus takes the contra side.

[00:00:48] That doesn't mean, of course, that you don't have a different opinion.

[00:00:52] But for the format, we thought about it this way.

[00:00:55] So we're not having a discussion in the traditional sense, we just want to contrast the two points of view.

[00:01:02] And you listeners can then of course decide for yourselves.

[00:01:06] And you can also let us know under the hashtag #GemeinsamBesser.

[00:01:11] But we'll explain that again at the end.

[00:01:15] First of all, what are sensitivity readers anyway?

[00:01:19] I picked out a neutral definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

[00:01:24] A sensitivity reader is someone who reads documents, books and so on to check,

[00:01:30] that they contain nothing that could upset or offend the reader.

[00:01:35] Especially before they are published.

[00:01:37] And that's where my first question comes in.

[00:01:40] When did you first come across the topic and what was your first reaction drato it?

[00:01:44] Christina, go ahead.

[00:01:46] I can't remember exactly,

[00:01:50] when I came across the topic.

[00:01:52] To be honest, it's been about seven years, I would say, over the last seven years.

[00:01:59] When there was also the internet-induced cultural shift.

[00:02:04] So then it also arrived in the publishing industry at some point and then at some point the word came up.

[00:02:10] And I'm not very familiar with it either,

[00:02:17] because it's just something that happens a lot behind the scenes.

[00:02:23] And then what is what except in the media, where it's discussed a lot,

[00:02:30] actually doesn't affect me that much at first?

[00:02:34] I would also say seven, eight years, maybe a bit before that,

[00:02:40] I have in connection with youth literature in America,

[00:02:47] I heard these terms for the first time, sensitivity reading or trigger warnings.

[00:02:53] And I thought to myself at the time, this is probably a new trend that's starting here.

[00:03:02] And at that time I already included the, let's say, skeptical reaction,

[00:03:10] because I thought that trends that are born in America will also end up here.

[00:03:18] That has to do with the fact that we usually have a certain collective-psychological-devout attitude

[00:03:25] towards America when it comes to trends, so that we can also be part of this trend,

[00:03:31] so that we can feel like we belong, because apparently we hardly have one ourselves,

[00:03:40] how should I put it, a collective-psychological identity that makes self-confident decisions here.

[00:03:49] And I was already thinking at the time, it's like you said, it started in the old social media discourse

[00:03:59] with all the compartmentalized bubbles and hashtags and stuff.

[00:04:04] But I thought to myself, that sounds like it's going to develop into something,

[00:04:10] which I personally don't think is very positive.

[00:04:15] So in terms of the timeline, you're absolutely right.

[00:04:18] The trend started around 2015 and young adult.

[00:04:24] Where the trend towards more diversity was also just emerging.

[00:04:28] So that you get a feeling for what kind of books are being changed,

[00:04:32] I wanted to give an example.

[00:04:34] The example I chose is Blood Air, Heart of Blood and Ashes by Amélie Wen Zhao.

[00:04:42] The story takes place in a fictional empire with an enslaved underclass called Affenites.

[00:04:48] The protagonist is a princess and lives in hiding because she has a resemblance to these Affenites.

[00:04:54] And that's where the action starts.

[00:04:57] And this is where the criticism came from early readers, who saw a disturbing similarity in the book

[00:05:03] with American slavery and the underdrücking of black people.

[00:05:08] Wen Zhao himself grew up in Beijing and said at the time,

[00:05:13] that she was actually trying to relate to debt or indentured servitude and human trafficking in Asia.

[00:05:22] And the author stopped the publication anyway.

[00:05:26] And then Sensitivity Reader took on this book and only then was the book published.

[00:05:33] By the way, we also have the book in the library as a book and as an e-book, for those who are interested.

[00:05:39] So in this case, they were the readers who were decisive for the use of Sensitivity Reader.

[00:05:45] And so my first question, my first big question.

[00:05:48] What are the advantages and disadvantages of sensitivity readers from the reader's point of view?

[00:05:53] Markus, maybe you'll start this time?

[00:05:55] I believe that this is always about a fundamental premise,

[00:06:04] this just society, the colorful, diverse society.

[00:06:08] And the aim is to prevent possible injuries and possible grief for marginalized groups.

[00:06:19] Now I personally can have a say in this, not just as a reader, but also as a reader.

[00:06:27] I am a homosexual man with 47 years of life experience and what I dislike about this development is,

[00:06:37] the stigmatization of people in marginalized groups as cemented victims, as weak.

[00:06:45] If I as a reader, as you have now asked, if I as a reader now as a gay reader would like a novel story about a,

[00:06:54] I don't know, a gay love story or a coming out story

[00:06:59] and want to know how the author realizes this in his or her creative vision,

[00:07:06] then a sensitivity reader comes along as an intermediate instance,

[00:07:11] wants to do this because of his or her homosexuality, not his or her literary skills,

[00:07:21] but above all his homosexuality, to check whether there are stereotypes here,

[00:07:27] whether there are possible violations here, and what happens is that he denies me,

[00:07:34] my own intelligence to be able to decide for myself whether I perceive something as stereotyping or not.

[00:07:43] And for me as a reader, that is already a mockery of my intelligence and therefore also a personal attack.

[00:07:51] Christina?

[00:07:53] So from a reader's point of view, I think there is in particular, so to differentiate again,

[00:08:03] we're talking about sensitivity readers, in this context I think of those who, in this case the example,

[00:08:11] that you've just mentioned, were brought in again after publication for PR reasons.

[00:08:18] So it was already before the publication, it was earlier readers who test-read it and then this backlash came.

[00:08:25] Similar to the movie, there were tests, you see, of course it's always a market and the market bends to the rules.

[00:08:34] But for me, as I understand Sensitivity Reader in a positive sense, is before the creation of the work.

[00:08:43] And that is, Markus, you gave the example of a gay author weaving his experiences into his novel,

[00:08:51] which is probably often not the moment when someone as an author has the feeling,

[00:09:00] perhaps needing a sensitivity reader or a reader, which is of course a word with negative connotations or wanting to have.

[00:09:11] It goes like this, so an example that works very well for me would be, for example, as a white woman,

[00:09:19] I don't know anything about black grooming. However, it's just a process, you need different combs,

[00:09:27] you need different products, if I imagine now that I as an author, I know we're talking from the reader's point of view, I'll come straight to dra,

[00:09:35] want to write about a black woman, but I just don't know, then I see that as part of the research,

[00:09:43] when I read it as a white reader, I learn something, even if it doesn't matter what skin color the author has,

[00:09:56] if that's culturally sensitive in this case, in the case of touching little things,

[00:10:03] I appreciate that as a white reader and now from my experience as a woman.

[00:10:07] I'm socialized with books written by male authors.

[00:10:13] In my reading socialization, female authorship came much later

[00:10:20] and I now recognize myself much more in these themes and there are male authors who write incredibly sensitively and well as women.

[00:10:32] As a reader, I don't care whether someone has used a sensitivity reader or not,

[00:10:37] but I always appreciate it when it's treated with respect

[00:10:42] and I appreciate it when someone goes that extra step to make sure when you don't trust yourself to do it.

[00:10:49] So for you, it's a bit about reality and making sure that it's really accurate.

[00:10:54] Partly yes.

[00:10:55] Okay, so we have very interesting different opinions.

[00:10:59] Of course, not only newer books are viewed by sensitivity readers, but also older ones.

[00:11:05] The James Bond series by Ian Fleming, for example, was republished in 2023.

[00:11:11] Racist insults and disparagement of women and homosexuality were removed from the texts.

[00:11:18] At the beginning, at some point, there is information that the text has been changed and that efforts have been made to stay as close as possible to the original.

[00:11:25] It was similar from the publisher Puffin Books,

[00:11:28] This is a subgroup of Penguin Books for Roald Dahl's children's books.

[00:11:33] But they were very heavily criticized for that because of the alteration of the texts

[00:11:37] so harshly that they are now publishing both versions, which means more money for the publisher.

[00:11:43] Now the original texts and the modified texts are published.

[00:11:48] The original texts were then resold under the series "The Roald Dahl Classic Collection".

[00:11:53] The same thing happened with the new Agatha Christie editions.

[00:11:59] In particular, racist material fromdrücke was removed.

[00:12:03] Here I also have a specific example from Death on the Nile, where a character complains about children.

[00:12:11] So she says, "They come back and stare and stare.

[00:12:15] And their eyes are just disgusting and so are their noses.

[00:12:19] And I don't think I really like children mag.

[00:12:22] This was then reduced in the new edition.

[00:12:25] Here she just says: "They come back and stare and stare.

[00:12:29] And I don't think I really want children mag.

[00:12:32] And behind such changes, of course, is the publisher who employs sensitivity readers and who wants to republish the books.

[00:12:39] So my question now is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of sensitivity readers for publishers?

[00:12:45] Christina.

[00:12:47] Yes, so publishers are always both.

[00:12:51] And it's also the paradox of the book.

[00:12:54] Literature is so much art and creativity, but it's also an object for sale.

[00:13:02] Publishers live from what they sell.

[00:13:07] Culturally, it's at the moment, so we're talking about wokeism,

[00:13:11] We're talking about the fact that there's this left-liberal shift,